Subject: Re: FVWM: Page-placement of windows?

From: Neil Bird <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 13:32:16 +0000

Bob Woodside wrote:
> Neil Bird <[email-masked]> wrote:
> >   Well, I'm now trying to use this, ... and it /doesn't/ seem to work. It
> > gets the Netscape stuff on the right page if one removes '-iconic', but
> > the StartsIconic style fails, and both Navigator & MailThread kick off in
> > open windows:
> 
>         As Dominik mentioned, this has been corrected in the CVS repository
> for a few days. If you don't have CVS access, unfortunately, you'll have
> to wait till the next tarball is cut.
> 
>         If you install the latest CVS sources or the next tarball, and still
> have problems with StartsOnPage, please let us know ASAP.

  OK, I have to admit to not having a clue what you mean by 'CVS' - I can
see nothing by this name in the Web or FTP sites, nor the FAQ.

  /However/, I *am* now running the 'development' 2.1.6 I found on the FTP
site, and my Netscape placement problem's been solved! I can now start
'netscape -iconic', with 'StartsOnPage 0 1' and everything comes up in the
right place.

  Here's the 'but'. I'm still having a problem that I'd not mentioned
before, with starting Solaris's 'clock' & 'cm'. Now, I used to start these
command-line iconic, but I now apply the 'StartsIconic' style (their
WM_CLASSes are set appropriately).

  However, they don't appear in the correct place as specified on their
command line:

   toolwait clock -geometry 132x70-9+143 -WP 1078 9 +Wn
   toolwait cm -geometry 877x419-80+50 -WP 1081 80

  They both come up at (0,0) ... until clicked upon, when they run over to
where they're supposed to be!? Actually, it's a bit worse than that - that
was with the iconic parameter; with clock having 'StartsIconic', it's icon
is a blank white box till I double-click open it & re-iconise it. Hence:

   FvwmCommand 'Function Bounce-Icon clock'  2>&1  > /dev/null
   FvwmCommand 'Function Bounce-Icon cm'     2>&1  > /dev/null

  ... in my start-up script, and:

+  "I" Function Bounce-Icon clock
+  "I" Function Bounce-Icon cm

  ... in my RestartFunction, with:

AddToFunc Bounce-Icon  \
   "I" Next [$0] Iconify -1
+  "I" Wait $0
+  "I" Next [$0] Iconify  1

  Not nice, but it works!

  The other potential work-arounds are: don't give icon locations on the
command-line (with netscape, I gave a leading IconBox style of exactly the
corrds to use), and don't use 'em! (I guess I could get what I want from
FvwmButtons, but I've not yet looked into that at all).

PS
  Why doesn't the FVWM mailing list have itself as the Reply-To? I have to
keep changing the 'To' to prevent myself from emailing the missive to the
original author!

-- 
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III <[email-masked]>
Date: 05 Jan 1999 09:37:55 -0600

>>>>> "NB" == Neil Bird <[email-masked]> writes:

NB>   OK, I have to admit to not having a clue what you mean by 'CVS' - I
NB> can see nothing by this name in the Web or FTP sites, nor the FAQ.

It's on the web page, under "Docs, FAQ & Other Info".  See
http://fvwm.math.uh.edu/cvs.html.  CVS is the system by which multiple
developers contribute to the source code.  You can use it to get a complete
snapshot of the development source at any moment.

NB>   /However/, I *am* now running the 'development' 2.1.6 I found on the
NB> FTP site

Beware that it's in the testing directory for a reason.  2.1.5 is the
latest released version.

 - J<

---

From: Neil Bird <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:55:54 +0000

Pete Forman wrote:
> Neil Bird writes:
>  >   Why doesn't the FVWM mailing list have itself as the Reply-To? I
>  > have to keep changing the 'To' to prevent myself from emailing the
>  > missive to the original author!
> 
> I raised that question three weeks ago on this list.  The bottom line
> is that Reply-To _should_ go to the author alone.  Followup should be
> used to reply to the list.

  Actually, I've partially followed a big thread on this wrt. the home
mailer I use. I don't recall there being a proper consensus: someone said
that 'Reply-To:' should be the 'personal reply' bit (i.e., to the author)
and the 'From:' the mailing-list ... but then someone else pointed to:

... the 'Majordomo FAQ'
<URL:http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~barr/majordomo-faq.html>
and the 'Mailing List Management Software FAQ'
<URL:ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq>
for reference.

  Which, to quote his summary, say:

 - Replies should be sent to Reply-To: field if present (mailing list
   software should set this to point to the 'posting address')
 - The Author's Email address should always be shown in the From:
   field (if the Reply-To: field isn't set, this address should be
   used)
 - The actual poster (if the author is using another machine) should
   have the address shown in Sender: (if not present, assume From:)
 - Errors-To: /may/ be set to the administrator of the mailing list
   (if applicable) or the administrator of the sending machine.
   Mailer-Daemon software should send failure messages et al to this
   address.

  Either way, shouldn't we have /both/ a 'From:' and 'Reply-To:',
whichever way around they go?

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 05 Jan 1999 10:50:07 -0500

>> have problems with StartsOnPage, please let us know ASAP.

  nb>   OK, I have to admit to not having a clue what you mean by 'CVS'
  nb> - I can see nothing by this name in the Web or FTP sites, nor the
  nb> FAQ.

CVS == Concurrent Versioning System

This is a source code control system used by many of the Open Source
projects.  One of its prime advantages is that it is "internet aware"
and you can check out and in code across the net.  And it's free
software, of course :).

Also, you can check out (only) code anonymously, so if you have a CVS
client you can obtain up-to-the-second source code directly from the
development tree to play with, if you like.

  http://www.cyclic.com/

I'm surprised you didn't find anything about CVS on the web pages, I'm
pretty sure there's a discussion of how to obtain sources via CVS, etc.
Yep, look under the "Docs, FAQ, & other Info" link:

  http://fvwm.math.uh.edu/docs.html

  nb>   /However/, I *am* now running the 'development' 2.1.6 I found on
  nb> the FTP site, and my Netscape placement problem's been solved! I
  nb> can now start 'netscape -iconic', with 'StartsOnPage 0 1' and
  nb> everything comes up in the right place.

As I recall, 2.1.6 had some semi-serious bug which necessitated a 2.1.7
quite quickly afterwards.

  nb>    toolwait clock -geometry 132x70-9+143 -WP 1078 9 +Wn
  nb>    toolwait cm -geometry 877x419-80+50 -WP 1081 80

These are OpenLook resources (-WP, etc.)  I don't really understand the
relationship between OpenLook resources and X resources, but I wouldn't
be too surprised if there were issues there such that fvwm didn't see
the icon position properly.  Fvwm isn't an OpenLook app.

Does it happen with any "normal" X apps, or just the OpenLook apps?

  nb>   Why doesn't the FVWM mailing list have itself as the Reply-To? I
  nb> have to keep changing the 'To' to prevent myself from emailing the
  nb> missive to the original author!

http://garcon.unicom.com/FAQ/reply-to-harmful.html

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Paul D. Smith <[email-masked]>         Network Management Development
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:07:34 -0500

> Does it happen with any "normal" X apps, or just the OpenLook apps?

These problems with Openlook have been around a while now.

I haven't tried it, but possibly removing the -WP from the command line
and giving the application its own iconbox will help.

A while ago I switched from "cm" to "/usr/dt/bin/dtcm" which seems to be
Motif based and doesn't seem to have the same problems.

Here are the X-resources I use to place "dtcm":

! This places dtcm where I like it, using all known screen sizes.
! Basically, -142 pixels off the right edge:
#if ( WIDTH == 1152 )     /* Traditional Sparc */
dtcm*iconX: 1010
#elif ( WIDTH == 1280 )   /* Sparc 21 inch */
dtcm*iconX: 1138
#elif ( WIDTH == 1024 )   /* Exceed in 1024x768 mode */
dtcm*iconX: 882
#else                     /* I have no idea...guess 800x600 */
dtcm*iconX: 658
#endif
dtcm.iconY: 93
dtcm.geometry: 610x450

There doesn't seem to be a "dtclock" to replace "clock" however.

> --
>  Paul D. Smith <[email-masked]>

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From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 05 Jan 1999 11:32:18 -0500

nb>   Actually, I've partially followed a big thread on this wrt. the
  nb> home mailer I use. I don't recall there being a proper consensus:
  nb> someone said that 'Reply-To:' should be the 'personal reply' bit
  nb> (i.e., to the author) and the 'From:' the mailing-list ...

This doesn't make any sense.

If Reply-To exists, then From is ignored.  The purpose of Reply-To is
for users to be able to reset their reply address to something other
than what the mailer inserts: note that with many mailers and sendmail
configurations the From address is either hardcoded and not changeable
by the user, and/or munged by the delivery agent (to use a cononical
domain name, or something).

Reply-To is (should!) always left unmolested, so users can specify a
preferred reply address using that.

  nb>   Either way, shouldn't we have /both/ a 'From:' and 'Reply-To:',
  nb> whichever way around they go?

If you have both, it doesn't matter what the From address is as it's
ignored.

Check the URL I posted for more details.

---

From: Pete Forman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:46:13 GMT

> Check the URL I posted for more details.

And RFC 822 section 4.4 for the exact definitions of From, Sender,
Reply-To, etc.
-- 
Pete Forman
Western Geophysical
[email-masked]

---

From: Neil Bird <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:53:18 +0000

> And RFC 822 section 4.4 for the exact definitions of From, Sender,

  Hmm. I've looked at the RFC; to quote 4.4 "Reply-To/Resent-Reply-To":
        ...  A
        somewhat  different  use  may be of some help to "text message
        teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic  distribution
        services:   include the address of that service in the "Reply-
        To" field of all messages  submitted  to  the  teleconference;
        then  participants  can  "reply"  to conference submissions to
        guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of  their
        own.

  To my mind, that says that mail-lists ought to have the 'Reply-To' set
to the list itself. Presumably, it would be preferable to /only/ do this
if the author's not set it (or change theirs to 'Resent-').

  I don't know - this has gone a little too far OT to warrant continuing
much further. Personally [if it works], I'll try to remember to add
'Reply-To: fvwm' to my postings in the future.

---

From: Mark Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:02:34 -0700 (MST)

On Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:53:18 +0000, Neil Bird <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Pete Forman wrote:
>> Paul D. Smith writes: Check the URL I posted for more details. And
>> RFC 822 section 4.4 for the exact definitions of From, Sender,
>> Reply-To, etc.

>   Hmm. I've looked at the RFC; to quote 4.4
> "Reply-To/Resent-Reply-To": ...  A somewhat different use may be of
> some help to "text message teleconferencing" groups equipped with
> automatic distribution include the address of that service in the
> "Reply- To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference;
> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to guarantee
> the correct distribution of any submission of their own.

>   To my mind, that says that mail-lists ought to have the 'Reply-To'
> set to the list itself. Presumably, it would be preferable to /only/
> do this if the author's not set it (or change theirs to 'Resent-').

>   I don't know - this has gone a little too far OT to warrant
> continuing much further. Personally [if it works], I'll try to
> remember to add fvwm' to my postings in the future.

What's the big deal?  I can't believe we're still harping on this
issue.  Just use "reply to all" in your email client and everything
should work just fine -- unless of course the author puts in a
Reply-To and it messes everything up.

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---

From: Adam L Rice <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:32:53 +0000

> Reply-To and it messes everything up.

Trouble is, that on many mailers, "reply to all" will send to the list AND
the originator of the message, who ends up with two copies. Even worse, when
there's a big thread like this, the To: line just keeps on growing and
growing and growing. My prefered mailer, mutt, has a list-reply function,
which always does the right thing, but at the cost of having to put the
names of all the lists I'm on in my .muttrc.

In conclusion, though I'm aware of the various issues with munging the
Reply-To: line, it is the solution which works least badly with the greatest
proportion of mailers. The Reply-To: line is rarely used in the "I'm not
really there, I'm here" fashion, since it's so easy to just forge the From:
line, and as a result renaming that header to something else and replacing
it will cause distress it such a miniscule proportion of cases as to not be
worth considering.

None of this is very important to the fvwm list though, which probably has
among its readers a greater proportion of people using sane RFC-compliant
email software combined with functioning grey matter than most mailing lists
on the Internet.

-- 
Adam Rice -- [email-masked] -- Blackburn, Lancashire, England