Subject: FVWM: follow-mode like feature in fvwm

From: Neil Zanella <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:18:11 -0230 (NDT)

Hi,

Has anyone taken up the task of developing a follow-mode like feature for
the window manager?

<http://www.csd.uu.se/~andersl/follow.shtml>

To summarize, the feature should work as follows:

A single command opens up multiple windows (say n windows).

The windows are all related to each other as they all show the same file

The very top line of window k follows immediately from window k-1 and

scrolling one window k will scroll window k+1 as well. To select the n

related windows with the mouse it suffices to select one of them.

All related windows get the same HiForeColor and HiBackColor when the mouse 

points to one of them whereas the other unrelated windows act as usual with

with respect to color.

Is anyone implementing this in fvwm? It would be a nice feature.

This would add a follow-mode like feature to every application running 

within fvwm. That the feature won't have to be incorporated into every single

program that needs it (like the various editors, pagers, postscript viewers,

etc...)

Best wishes,

Thanks,

Neil Zanella
[email-masked]

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From: Nathan Froyd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:14:09 -0500

> Has anyone taken up the task of developing a follow-mode like feature for

I think somebody posted this a few days ago. Does anybody else
understand this concept or why it would be useful? And anyway, I think
it has to be at the application level, not the window manager level.

Nathan

---

From: brian moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:47:30 -0700

> it has to be at the application level, not the window manager level.

Yeah, if I understand it, imagine opening something like Netscape that
takes half your screen top to bottom:

    +------------------+
    | +-----+          |
    | |     |          |
    | |     |          |
    | |     |          |
    | |     |          |
    | +-----+          |
    +------------------+

The request is to allow making Netscape think that it is twice as tall
as it is, and then take the 'bottom' half and move it to the right:

    +------------------+
    | +-----+ +-----+  |
    | |Top  | |Bottom  |
    | |     | |     |  |
    | |     | |     |  |
    | |     | |     |  |
    | +-----+ +-----+  |
    +------------------+

I don't think you can do that without running Netscape in a virtual
frame buffer and then ripping apart things for the real server.
It's not really a Window manager thing to solve.  (And, gads, it would
get confusing real fast: think of scrollbars and how scrolling up would
move from the right window suddendly to the left...)

-- 
Brian Moore                             Kill A Spammer For Jesus
Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker, Usenet Vandal 
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From: Neil Zanella <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:55:06 -0230 (NDT)

> takes half your screen top to bottom:

Sure every feature has it's drawbacks. I don't think it would be that confusing
altogether if one knows what they're doing. Myself, I don't use _all_ of the 
options that come with fvwm. I just use the ones that would be handy to me.
Just like I don't use the "stay on top" option with all objects I could 
restrict using this option with text editors only or so.

Neil

---

From: Neil Zanella <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:00:51 -0230 (NDT)

Well, if it were at the application level then every single application would 
have to write code to do the same stuff. The philosophy of Unix was:
"small is beautiful" so in view of that it would be nice to have a feature in
the window manager that filters the output of whatever application one wishes.
Even if it is not a window manager feature there should be a program that lets 
you do it with any window. And the window manager is what deals with windows.
Analogously, just cause "less" is there that doesn't mean that it is reasonable 
to pipe the output of every single program through "less".

Neil

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:44:25 -0400

Neil Zanella <[email-masked]> writes:
> > > > Has anyone taken up the task of developing a follow-mode like feature
> > > > for the window manager?

Neil,
  I think this is the  second time  you  have asked this question.   I
don't think  you have convinced anyone  that there  is a pressing need
for this.  In your original description  of "follow-mode" you referred
to   the  [X]Emacs  "follow-mode"  package.   Since  the functionality
required is already in [X]Emacs, why aren't you using that?

> > takes half your screen top to bottom:

This description  of the functionality  you want is markedly different
than the way I described  what you wanted last  week.  Yet you haven't
clarified either description.

(My  description  required virtual   (synthetic)  keystrokes and  some
method of window pairing, this description creates virtual windows.)

> Sure every feature  has it's  drawbacks. I don't  think  it would be
> that confusing altogether if one knows what they're doing. Myself, I
> don't use _all_  of the options that come  with fvwm. I just use the
> ones that would be handy to me.  Just like I  don't use the "stay on
> top" option with all objects I could restrict using this option with
> text editors only or so.

I suggest that you will first have to  describe what you want clearly,
then you will have to  convince someone that the  feature is so useful
that they will use it enough to pay back the time invested.

Perhaps  if you   went  into more detail  about  the  problem  you are
having...

Fvwm has a lot of great features, but the best part is that anyone can
change the source code.

--
Dan Espen                                Phone: (732) 699-5570
444 Hoes Lane  Room RRC 1C-214           E-mail: [email-masked]
Piscataway, NJ 08854
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---

From: Neil Zanella <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:24:42 -0230 (NDT)

> required is already in [X]Emacs, why aren't you using that?

Why? Because I want to do the same thing with vi and the various vi clones
and don't like the viper vi implementation that comes with Emacs that
much. Plus, with Emacs (I never used Xemacs but Emacs which I have used
can run in X mode or text mode) you can use follow-mode within a same
FVWM window but you can't use follow mode amongst separate windows.

You can have this:

+--------- Emacs ----------+
+--------------------------+
|1           |56           |
|            |             |
|            |             |
|            |             |
|            |             |
|55          |110          |
+--------------------------+

but you can't have this:

+---Emacs ---+   +---Emacs ---+
+------------+   +------------+
|1           |   |56          |  
|            |   |            |
|            |   |            |
|            |   |            |
|            |   |            |
|55          |   |110         |   
+------------+   +------------+

I will make another suggestion to the Emacs developers pertaining to this
feature then. Actually, here is where the problem comes in. In the latter
picture, both "Emacs" windos would have to have the same toolbar color.
If not, then scrolling down a highlighted window would move the cursor in
a nonhighlighted window. Really, this should be a window manager feature.

Even without follow-mode, having two windows display the same thing would
be nice. Just like  2 windows in Emacs without follow mode. Why should
everything appear in "one" rectangular box. Why not have things displayed
in more than just "one" rectangular box?

Neil

---

From: Neil Zanella <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:38:46 -0230 (NDT)

> method of window pairing, this description creates virtual windows.)

Ok, here is how the follow-mode like feature would work:

Imagine an application running in a window, say vi editor showing a long
file. Imagine having an extra button on the window toolbar. When you press
this button another new window pops. This window shows the part of the
long file immediately below the last line displayed in the former window.
Now you can place the new window with the mouse where you like. The new
window generated in this manner has the same color as the first window
since they show the same application and scrolling from one window moves
you to the second window.

Is this not a good enough description on how the feature would be
implemented? If something is unclear please don't hesitate to mail me.
I hope my explanation is satisfactory.

Why would I want such a feature? There are many editors out there but not
all have follow-mode. As I already said, right now it is impossible for
two or more windows (here by windows I mean real windows with frames, not
windows within a window) to interact via follow mode, and this is true of
any application including Emacs.

Best Reagrds,

Neil

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:58:03 -0400

> any application including Emacs.

I  don't believe what you  are now proposing  is  possible.  When an X
application  places text in  a window,  it  does it by  relative pixel
position.   The  window  manager has  no  way  to get   in-between the
application and X at this level.

---

From: "Jose' Manuel Pereira" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:58:08 +0100 (WEST)

"NZ" == Neil Zanella <[email-masked]> writes:

  NZ> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Dan Espen wrote:

  >> In your original description of "follow-mode" you referred to the
  >> [X]Emacs "follow-mode" package. Since the functionality required is
  >> already in [X]Emacs, why aren't you using that?

  NZ> Why? Because I want to do the same thing with vi and the various vi
  NZ> clones and don't like the viper vi implementation that comes with Emacs
  NZ> that much.

Ok, that's your choice. Nobody HAS to use [X]Emacs. It's simply very
convenient to do so most of the time ;-)

  NZ> Plus, with Emacs (I never used Xemacs but Emacs which I have used can
  NZ> run in X mode or text mode) you can use follow-mode within a same FVWM
  NZ> window but you can't use follow mode amongst separate windows.

True. Probably nobody found it necessary, so nobody implemented it.
Personally, I never found a use to the existing follow-mode as well...

  NZ> I will make another suggestion to the Emacs developers pertaining to
  NZ> this feature then. Actually, here is where the problem comes in. In the
  NZ> latter picture, both "Emacs" windos would have to have the same toolbar
  NZ> color. If not, then scrolling down a highlighted window would move the
  NZ> cursor in a nonhighlighted window.

Looks very much like the typical problem any application (and user) would
have with your proposed "follow-mode".

(What's the "toolbar color"? XEmacs has toolbars, and are all the same color.
FSF Emacs does not have toolbars. Also vi...)

  NZ> Really, this should be a window manager feature.

Why? We are talking editors here. E.g, how could any window manager provide X
windows capabilities/awereness to standard vi?

  NZ> Even without follow-mode, having two windows display the same thing
  NZ> would be nice. Just like 2 windows in Emacs without follow mode. Why
  NZ> should everything appear in "one" rectangular box. Why not have things
  NZ> displayed in more than just "one" rectangular box?

You can have "two" or "more" rectangular boxes in an Emacs window. Emacs call
them, perhaps a little confusingly, "windows". And a buffer can be displayed
in several windows. I use it everyday in editing: e.g., two windows showing
two different parts of a file. Of course, you can also have two "frames"
(Emacs parlance for X windows) display the same file/buffer.

Perhaps I misunderstood the whole point, in that case my apologies.

And maybe (IMHO) this topic is a bit off the Fvwm list...

-- 
 Jose' Pereira	 			 		Tel. +351.1.841 9340
 DEEC - Dep. of Electrical and Computer Engineering	Fax. +351.1.841 7499
 Instituto Superior Tecnico - Technical University of Lisboa
 Av. Rovisco Pais - 1096 Lisboa Codex - Portugal

PS: BTW, if you don't like emacs nor vi, there are other editors you can try.
Start with xedit...