Subject: FVWM: leapfrog

From: damon <[email-masked]>
Date: 12 Dec 2004 16:55:53 +0930

Why doesn't fvwm get with the times? It's a great window manager, no
doubt, i've used it for years now, but I want more, and not measly fixes
and patches. The project is moving inescapably into its' irrelevant
eventuality. The problem with much software development is people see
the stars and go for it, forgetting the steps in between. In fvwm there
is an opportunity to leapfrog other window managers and embrace the 3D
desktop, but only by leveraging the window commands that it exposes. Not
the current theatrics of 3D, simply windows enabled in the 3rd dimension
through its exposed command set.

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---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:34:39 +0000

On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 04:55:53PM +0930, damon wrote:
> doubt, i've used it for years now, but I want more, and not measly
> fixes and patches. The project is moving inescapably into its'

What do you mean? These "patches" are not measly in anyway. How else is
a project supposed to develop without them?

> irrelevant eventuality. The problem with much software development is
> people see the stars and go for it, forgetting the steps in between.
> In fvwm there is an opportunity to leapfrog other window managers and
> embrace the 3D desktop, but only by leveraging the window commands
> that it exposes. Not the current theatrics of 3D, simply windows
> enabled in the 3rd dimension through its exposed command set.

This is something which *might* happen in the future, but it depends on
the attitude of the developers (as to whether it is appropriate), and
indeed whether the users want it. 

If you're that hell-bent on 3D stuff, have a look at metisse[1] which is
based on Fvwm, and uses some of the features you're so desperate in
getting fvwm to support.

-- Thomas Adam

[1] http://insitu.lri.fr/~chapuis/metisse/

-- 
I know nothing, and understand even less.

---

From: damon <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Dec 2004 07:36:28 +0930

> a project supposed to develop without them?
It's just another point of view, however I should have first said I have
much respect for the contributors in any open source project. 

> indeed whether the users want it. 
I hadn't looked at the fvwm site for over six months, I don't need to, v
2.4.17 is still working for me since the last time i compiled it.
However when I visit the site again, there was little to inspire me. The
focus on cvs versions got me, I guess I wanted to see some vision.
> based on Fvwm, and uses some of the features you're so desperate in
It's just a reality. The undercurrents of change - the 3D desktop - are
breaking to the surface. Open your eyes and look around you. Fvwm has a
rich heritage, it would be nice to see it carried forward. I just looked
at metisse, and you are right, you know nothing and understand even
less, however karma points for any past involvement. Metisse is a play
on rendering, nothing to do with semantics. 

fvwm commands + semantics + current 3d desktops = vision for the future.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:10:25 -0500

> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 04:55:53PM +0930, damon wrote:
...
> breaking to the surface. Open your eyes and look around you.

Reality is subjective.
When I look, what I see is a 2D monitor.

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:27:38 +0000

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 07:36:28AM +0930, damon wrote:
> It's just a reality. The undercurrents of change - the 3D desktop
> - are breaking to the surface. Open your eyes and look around you    .
> Fvwm has a rich heritage, it would be nice to see it carried forward .

Oh, yes... Fvwm is going forward, but that does not mean it has to change
direction to achieve it. Adding in 3D support is not something that can
be done easily. Fvwm has always had a reputation for being light-weight,
and even to this day, with all the other bloated WMs and DEs out there,
it has remained so. 

> I just looked at metisse, and you are right, you know nothing and
> understand even less, however karma points for any past involvement  .
> Metisse is a play on rendering, nothing to do with semantics         .

But it is a step into the direction you want, IMO. You will need to
clarify just what it is you're expecting, mind. Although quite frankly
your attitude to your approach needs to be re-thought. Right now, it
stinks.

-- Thomas Adam

---

From: Shay <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:05:21 -0600

damon wrote:

> The project is moving inescapably into its irrelevant eventuality.
>
(Damon, sorry to have emailed your personal account.)

If FVWM were moving towards some "irrelevant eventuality" I can't 
believe that it would be because of any features. Fluxbox and IceWM(1) 
seem to be very popular and both are clunky(2) and under-featured 
compared to FVWM. A lot of the reason is probably just trend/fad. 
Something as simple as a new webpage, nice default config, or slashdot 
article could bring in a ton of new users any day. The 3D stuff, paned 
windows, etc. are all nice, but not a fit for everyone, or (guessing) 
even a majority of people. IMO, for people like myself who spend 99% of 
computer time coding, the floating window interface is and will remain 
the best fit.

-Shay

(1) I'm using IceWM myself at the moment, because of the lack of an 
acceptable (to me) default config in FVWM. Probably come back in the 
future (IceWM is not very tweakable) when I have time to set up FVWM. I 
switched to IceWM after a HD crash. I needed to gut "up and running" 
*quickly*. A nice thing about IceWM is that you can install it and get 
back to work instantly.

(2) The exception to this is the lack of "alt-tab" in FVWM. 
"Alt-tab-tab" is *very* clunky. A serious turn-off to my wife when I 
explained this to her.

---

From: Christian Schröder <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:23:31 +0100

Hi,
> windows, etc. are all nice, but not a fit for everyone, or (guessing) 

I thought FVWM is just a very configurable WM, so it does not to have 
live on the majority but "could" work for everyone, who is willing to 
configure. So, some new features would be nice.
Like a better implementation for transparence in colorsets since xorg 
gives us a "native" way.

But nevertheless FVWM lives from sample configs, because the 
documentation maybe complete, but it is neither ordered from a user 
perspective nor easy understandable.

> IMO, for people like myself who spend 99% of 

I do not know, but 3D desktops is like some pages/dekstops but you can 
see some hint on the content. It is not this big improvement but it is 
more easily to understand, cause 3D is your normal life, so you know, 
that there are things behind/right/left of other things, which you can 
see if you change your view (this is like changing the viewport, but 
htis is some more abstraction, which makes it less understandable).

>  A nice thing about IceWM is that you can install it and get
> back to work instantly.

ACK. That it is what it makes hard vor new users. Deploy some new 
default configs. There are enough of them in the net.

> "Alt-tab-tab" is *very* clunky. A serious turn-off to my wife when I 

I know know it is too late but:

Key Tab     A       M      WindowList CurrentAtEnd

solves this double Tab...
And it works just great. Only Openoffice sucks with navigator and style 
window.

Christian