Subject: FVWM: Microsoft Patent

From: Michael Wilkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:55:11 -0700

There is Microsoft Patent for a virtual desktop in the works, have you
guys seen this:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220030189597%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030189597&RS=DN/20030189597

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From: "F. Kater" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:19:21 +0100

> http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220030189597%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030189597&RS=DN/20030189597

Uuugh...What can we do?

Does the http://swpat.ffii.org/ comunity know about this?

Felix

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From: calmar <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:14:49 +0100

> Uuugh...What can we do?

I was reading that Microsoft can't have virtual desktops / pager
because there is already a patent on it (apple?). This patent is
exclusively assigned to X11.

So that might just be a try to get those virtual desktops / pager
anyway, maybe.

marco

-- 
  calmar 
           (o_         GNU/Linux is GREAT      
           //\                 
           V_/_        http://www.calmar.ws

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:11:51 +0100

> > http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220030189597%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030189597&RS=DN/20030189597

They pretty much got a patent on the whole virtual desktop idea
coupled with pagers.  Among other claims, any graphical
representation of the virtual desktop seems to have been patented.
As far as I can see now, fvwm would hypothetically infringe the
patent in many ways:

fvwm core:

  claims 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 19, 25

FvwmPager:

  claims 1, 2, 7, 14, 16, 18

FvwmBacker.

  claims 17, 20

FvwmCommand, FvwmConsole, etc.

  claim 19

Existing scripts, menus, FvwmButtons configs

  claims 5, 6

fvwm-theme

  claims 21, 22, 23, 24

> Does the http://swpat.ffii.org/ comunity know about this?

I've contacted the FSF.  Maybe I can find something about this
patent in the news.  If not, we have to inform the press.

Ciao

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Richard Ellis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:11:55 -0500

On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 07:55:11AM -0700, Michael Wilkinson wrote:
> There is Microsoft Patent for a virtual desktop in the works, have
> you guys seen this:
> 

Technically, that is a patent application publication.  They have not
yet been granted a patent.

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From: Bob Woodside <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:38:46 -0500

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:55:11 -0700

> http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220030189597%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030189597&RS=DN/20030189597

	IANAL, as they say, but here are my initial observations on this patent
application (the full text of the application may be grabbed in PDF form
from http://www.pat2pdf.com/20030189597.pdf).

1)  This is, as yet, only an application, published after a standard 18
month waiting period.

2)  The "invention" claimed is a detailed description of Microsoft's
MSVDM (Virtual Desktop Manager) component of their Power Tools
collection for Windows XP. This is readily seen in the supporting
artwork.

3) The application does not put a lock on the entire idea of
virtual desktop cum pager. The supporting drawings acknowledge prior art
in this area (albeit somewhat anonymously). You'll see recognizable KDE
and GNOME panel images (complete with GNOME pager) on page 2 (Figs. 1A -
1C).

4)  So far as I can tell, the gist of the claimed invention is their
method for interacting with the pager - zooming to full-screen, etc.
While I consider this entirely too trivial, frivolous, and obvious to be
worthy of a patent, I'm no patent expert (of course, I doubt that many
patent experts are also software experts). They may well be able to get
by with this one, though some of the individual claims may get denied or
modified. This is the aspect that concerns me most, for fear of overly
broad interpretations of the claims in the future, should the patent be
granted.

5)  This *may* well be a purely defensive patent application,
to prevent some rapacious, litigation-happy company from charging them
with IP violations for their MSVDM tool. They do have some history of
being targeted by companies whose main product seems to be IP
litigation.

	I'll be curious to see what the FSF's take on this is.

Cheers,
Bob

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:15:30 +0100

> from http://www.pat2pdf.com/20030189597.pdf).

Thank you for that document, Bob.

> and GNOME panel images (complete with GNOME pager) on page 2 (Figs. 1A -

In any case, better we resist now to prevent the damage before it
is done.

Ciao

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:29:20 +0100

An article on arstechinca specifically mentioning FvwmPager and
Enlightenment:

  http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1077781268.html

Ciao

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Toshi Isogai <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:01:18 -0700

The last time I tried to use this 'Litestep' on NT machine, which I
believe it was sometime around 2002/3, its functionality was not even
close to the level of fvwm. I used it for a while because it was the
only virtual desktop I could find for Windows and still I had to dump it
because it was less capable and less configurable than fvwm in the
area of virtual desktop and pager. 

It seems to me that this is a typical Microsoft approach of re-writing
already existing technology to less capability to call it original.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:29:20 +0100 Dominik
Vogt <[email-masked]> wrote:

|> An article on arstechinca specifically mentioning FvwmPager and
|> Enlightenment:
|> 
|>   http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1077781268.html
|> 
|> Ciao
|> 
|> Dominik ^_^  ^_^
|> --
|> Visit the official FVWM web page at <URL: http://www.fvwm.org/>.
|> To unsubscribe from the list, send "unsubscribe fvwm" in the body of a
|> message to [email-masked].
|> To report problems, send mail to [email-masked].

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Toshi Isogai          [email-masked]

SEAKR Engineering, Inc.
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Centennial, CO  80111
Phone (303) 784-7674  direct
      (303) 790-8499  main

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From: Julian Finn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:10:35 +0100

guys, 

in any case: is this something to be worried about? i mean.. prior art
and stuff...? 

Cheers, 

Julian

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From: Micha Feigin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:39:54 +0200

> So that might just be a try to get those virtual desktops / pager

They do have them through a powertools thingy. I installed it once on XP
I had on this laptop before I stopped using it in favor of linux, but it
was very awkward and I kicked it back out the door.  There is a free
option also that works on both XP and 2000 called deskwin (don't
remember if open source or just free) that was much nicer and I use that
on my girlfriend's computer (she needs MS office with hebrew and doesn't
like linux ...).

As for patents, doesn't this kind of thing fall under the software
patent issue?

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From: Micha Feigin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:51:07 +0200

> broad interpretations of the claims in the future, should the patent be

It does remind me though of the 3ddesktop project. Although the
interface is not exactly the same and with 3ddesktop you can't drag
windows from one desktop to another, it does zoom out and show you all
desktops at once in a nice 3D interface.

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From: Remko Troncon <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:14:34 +0100

> There is Microsoft Patent for a virtual desktop in the works, have you

This is not the first time (and it certainly won't be the last) that
Microsoft issues bogus patents. As mentioned before, there clearly is prior
art here, so a patent like that will never hold up in court. Another example 
would be the 'contact is composing...' message in IM systems; for this, there 
also is prior art (even Jabber, a fairly 'new' protocol had that before
the patent was issued).

Concerning patents, i personally wouldn't pay too much attention to
them. You only get frustrated, you lose a lot of time. Then again, i am
no lawyer, just a programmer who likes to code whatever he has in his
head.

cheers,
Remko