Subject: Re: FVWM: Help! Windows keep dying on me...

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:35:28 -0500

Ryan Daly <[email-masked]> writes:
> Dan Espen wrote:
> > Read what we did, all the details of what we found are available.
> > 
> > If you want this to work, send a problem report to Sun.
> > If I had the software installed at work, I would qualify to file
> > a bug report, but I don't.
> > 
> > Someone that is a registered user of RM6 has to take the initiative.
> > 
> > Someone here will probably be  willing to change  Fvwm, if thats whats
> > needed, but we have no idea what to change.
> 
> I'd be willing to do whatever to help you guys out.  All I need to know 
> is what to do.  I'm not sure I'd know what you're looking for anyway, so 
> it'd be best if you guided me through.
> 
> I did notice that the PolicyEditor (from Checkpoint Firewall-1) seems to 
> be the cause of the problems for me.  When I have that application 
> running, it will not allow me to start the GUI from EMC for their backup 
> product.  It's also when I have this PolicyEditor up when RM6 starts 
> acting up.  Individually they're OK (I think).
> 
> Let me know what I can do to help.  Even if it's an application problem, 
> maybe I can help you find out a protection against the windows dying.

I repeat, "if you want this to work, send a problem report to Sun".

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]
--
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---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:44:01 -0500

> I repeat, "if you want this to work, send a problem report to Sun".

That's great and all, but what do I tell Sun.  "Fix RM6 'cause it dies 
on FVWM" is not going to go too far.  They're going to tell me to use a 
window manager that supports it, just like EMC did.

I thought what I was implying in the last post was that I need to know 
WHAT to tell Sun (and Checkpoint/EMC if their apps continue to be a 
problem).

I looked through the posts, but I have no idea what to pull out and 
present to Sun.  Remember, I am not a developer, so help me out here.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:55:13 -0500

> present to Sun.  Remember, I am not a developer, so help me out here.

Ask them to look at this post:

http://www.hpc.uh.edu/fvwm/archive/0212/msg00286.html

I believe it summarizes our findings.

As far as their statement about using another window manager,
I don't know what to tell you.

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:06:09 -0500

> I believe it summarizes our findings.

Excellent.  I'll log the call today.  Should I post updates to the list?

> I don't know what to tell you.

Well, that's what an EMC employee told me to do.  I raised this issue 
with them a while back (probably 2 or so years) and that's what they 
told me.  That was verbal, so I have nothing to fall back on.  It was 
something like FVWM didn't handle something that their app was depending 
on or some strange thing.

When I read that FVWM is ICCCM-compliant, what's that implying?  Is that 
a standard?  Are X applications supposed to be written to a standard?

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:45:28 -0500

> I don't know what to tell you.

I don't mean to throw something else into the mix here, but I did some 
"testing" before I'd get Sun involved.  I remembered a while back when I 
was looking into this that I stumbled on something, but don't think I 
ever made sure of my findings.

Turns out, the two windows that act up at for me don't act up by 
themselves.  Meaning, if I have RM6 and/or the EDM GUI running, things 
seem fine.  This leads me to believe there's another application in the 
mix that's introducing something strange into the environment that's 
causing the entire problem.  Could this be the case?

Here's why I think that.  At work, I run Checkpoint's PolicyEditor. 
While that was running, I started my EDM GUI.  The main window briefly 
opened, but exited just after the "About" window closed.  I closed the 
Checkpoint GUI and restarted the EDM GUI, which now functioned properly. 
  I then remembered RM6 showed symptoms while the EDM symptom was there. 
  I closed the EDM GUI, started Checkpoint, and then started RM6.  Sure 
enough, when moving the pointer over the buttons that pop-up the balloon 
help, the window died, which (I think) is the symptom that most people 
are complaining about.

So, my problems only appeared to be present when the Checkpoint GUI was 
up and running.  This was until I noticed yesterday that both RM6's and 
the EDM's symptoms were still present even though the Checkpoint GUI had 
no longer been running.  (Maybe there's residual effects from having 
that window open?)

So, thinking back, I remembered that I had been running VMWare 
Workstation v3.x while my problems were present the first time around. 
I grabbed a copy of WMWare 3.x today and started it up (you only need to 
run vmware-config.pl and then start the vmware binary to see the 
problem, no need to actually install a vmware host).  The problem was 
there.  I stopped VMWare and the problem went away.

Note I started v3.x.  The new version of VMWare (4.x) does NOT produce 
the symptoms in RM6 and the EDM GUI.

What do you think about this?  Could it be that the problem is VMWare 
3.x and the Checkpoint GUI instead of the other two (RM6 and EDM GUI)? 
Is it possible that something strange is being introduced that's 
screwing up the other apps?

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:51:13 -0500

> on or some strange thing.

Whatever he told you might help.

> a standard?  Are X applications supposed to be written to a standard?

Yes, the ICCCM specifies how the window manager and clients are supposed
to act.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:57:32 -0500

> screwing up the other apps?

As I remember, when I did some testing with this, I was using
a virtual X environment so RM6 was running by itself.
One "quirk" is that I would get the problem when the virtual X
environment was set up with
$DISPLAY set to X:0 and it would work fine with $DISPLAY as X:1.

I think that just illustrates that something random is going on.
None of this helps me, or anyone else that followed along with
the debugging to figure out what was going on.

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 15:48:25 -0500

> Whatever he told you might help.

No, unfortunately.  All he told me was to use a different window manager.

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:13:32 -0500

> the debugging to figure out what was going on.

OK.  I just thought it was really strange that my symptoms show up only 
when there's other programs running, and go away when those programs are 
not running.

Is there no way to see if that triggers any weird conditions by a log or 
anything?  (Grasping...)

What problem did you see when you were testing with RM6 by itself?  Was 
it the same problem I described?  I'll try to reproduce and add that to 
the case to Sun.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:24:39 -0500

> Is there no way to see if that triggers any weird conditions by a log or 

Take a look at:

(same URL)
those were all the logs I could figure out how to create.

> it the same problem I described?  I'll try to reproduce and add that to 

The symptom was the application closing itself.

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:39:47 -0500

> the debugging to figure out what was going on.

Just checked things on :1.  I get the same results.  One strange thing, 
though.  Check out the following sequences...

* Started RM6
   Opened "Status"
   Moved mouse over "Select Module" button and received the balloon help.
   Closed RM6

* Started VMWare
   Started RM6
   Opened "Status"
   Moved mouse over "Select Module" button and "Status" window died.
   Closed RM6
   Closed VMWare

* Started RM6
   Opened "Status"
   Moved mouse over "Select Module" button and received the balloon help.
   Opened VMWare
   Moved mouse over "Select Module" button and received the balloon help.
   Opened second "Status" window
   Moved mouse over "Select Module" in "Status (2)" and "Status (2)" died.
   Moved mouse over "Select Module" in "Status" and received the balloon 
help.

Whatever random thing is going on seems to be activated by the problem 
window, in this case VMWare, and doesn't seem to affect already running 
windows.

Would you want me try to capture some debugging information while going 
through this sequence?  Would that help at all?

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:09:36 -0500

> through this sequence?  Would that help at all?

No, I already have
all the traces that it is possible to produce.  Without the source
code to the application, I can't deduce why the application decides
it is going to close itself.

You PAID for support for the application you are running.
Get them to do some work on this.

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:34:38 -0500

> Get them to do some work on this.

OK.  I'm currently logging the call with Sun support, but wanted to make 
sure I can reference you in the call.  I don't know for sure, but I 
gather from what I've read that you are one of the developers?

Is it OK if I do that?

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:46:48 -0500

> Get them to do some work on this.

I just logged the call.  I decided not to reference any names right off 
the bat.  If they need contact information in the future, I can point 
them to your e-mail or the list.

Let me know if you want me to e-mail you a copy of the service request. 
  If not, I'll just post any updates as they happen.

Thanks.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:31:47 -0500

>   If not, I'll just post any updates as they happen.

I do occasional development.
It would be best if you give them:

[email-masked]

If they don't want anything that public, they can contact me directly.

---

From: Ryan Daly <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:51:26 -0500

> If they don't want anything that public, they can contact me directly.

OK.  When I get updates, I'll post them here.