Subject: FVWM: Wiki for fvwm?

From: Mario Domgörgen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:39:07 +0200

Hej list!

Wouldn't it be great if fvwm has its own wiki? Fvwm is customizable and
there are so a lot of usefull code snippets, that i would lek the idea
of a playce where we can collect such things. In the FAQ are already
some great pieces, but there are doubtless a lot more...

What do you think of that?

Mario
 
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From: "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:26:27 +0200

> What do you think of that?

I proposed that a couple of month ago as well. Surely it would would be nice 
to have such a thing but noone seems to have tackled it and I just don't 
have the time. Maybe you could do it? I'm sure the FVWM web site 
maintainers will provide you with the neccessary web space.

Felix

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:11:19 +0200

Hi there,

On 28 Jul 2003 at 22:26:27 +0200, Felix E. Klee wrote:

> > Wouldn't it be great if fvwm has its own wiki? Fvwm is
> > customizable and there are so a lot of usefull code
> > snippets, that i would lek the idea of a playce where we
> > can collect such things. In the FAQ are already some
> > great pieces, but there are doubtless a lot more...
> >
> I proposed that a couple of month ago as well. Surely it
> would would be nice to have such a thing but noone seems
> to have tackled it and I just don't have the time.

I am not that sure if it is that appropriate. 
(see http://wiki.org/wiki.cgi?WhatIsWiki) Allowing everyone
to edit site contents requires the pages to be maintained,
so that advertising and other unwanted, probably illegal
stuff is removed. On the wiki pages at
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiWikiSandbox one can even place
pictures which is quite precarios since someone could place
illegal ones. Sure, the changer's IP address is stored
but it seems a lot of work to trace somebody which can be
identified by it's IP address only.

Further I don't think that it is that good for storing
config parts for fvwm because users will hardly find
something, since it will be just to much.

I'd rather if we collect config parts, like button setups,
titlebar decorations, menu definitions and fvwm scripts, and
place them together with a screenshot and description on the
web site.
Having them fully maintained ensures higher quality and
saves the user time (and nerves :-)

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Remko Troncon <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:54:08 +0200

> place them together with a screenshot and description on the

I agree with Uwe. The current approach is a lot easier, much more
maintainable, and gives a good overview. The threshold is a little bit
higher, because you have to actually send a mail to someone, but maybe
that isn't really such a bad thing after all ;-)

IMHO, wiki is only suitable for early stages of a work in progress, when
things are in a state of flux, and having centralized documents is a lot
of overhead on synchronization. But once things stopped moving, the
whole wiki hierarchy (which is usually a huge mess by then in which you
get lost very quick) should be organized into centrally administered
documents.

Just my 2 cents.

cheers,
Remko

---

From: Mario Domgörgen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:15:40 +0200

> that isn't really such a bad thing after all ;-)

If the maintainer of the homepage agree with that, i will be happy ... :)

> get lost very quick) should be organized into centrally administered

It could be very hard to get a centralized document of configuration
scripts. But there will be a dozen differant ways to make a panel with
FVWMButtons for example. How do you want to deal with that in a
centralized document? I think you talk about a manual but i want seomthing for
configuration. In the moment all of these things are put in the
faq. Okay for the moment ... but a faq could become very unreadable if
add a dozen alternatives for every problem on it ...

Mario

-- 
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.

---

From: Mario Domgörgen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:18:09 +0200

> maintainers will provide you with the neccessary web space.

If there is webspace and a rough consens that we want something like
that, i would do that although i never have started a public wiki ....
But couldn't be that hard and maybe someone could help me... :)

Mario

-- 
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
But we never will.

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:52:15 +0200

Hallo Mario,

Mario Domgörgen schrieb am Dienstag, den 29. Juli 2003:

> Every site need to be maintained, only that on a wiki
> that's collective work of a lot of people. Wikis work with
> the expectation that there are more "good" that "bad"
> users and that the "bad" users will not stay very long
> when their try to destroy the work of other people will
> silently removed. And it's really more work to add illegal
> material than to remove it. Besides, i have never heard or
> seen anything like that on linuxwiki.de or emacswiki.org.

I got the idea of wiki, but I see not that big difference to
the current mailing list procedure. Everyone is free to post
ideas, scripts, shots... to the fvwm-mailing list. If the
posted is good we will put it on the web site.

> But you need therefor seomone who mantain the site
> ... it's easier just to add two pages on a wiki, then
> sending a maintainer the work and wait till he transfer
> it. Emacswiki is really a great example how usefull it can
> be to collect configuration scripts on a wiki. Nobody
> hinder you to add a screenshot and a description to you
> button config on a wiki...

At the moment mainly I keep the web site up to date. I just
commit my changes via cvs.

A couple of months ago I remade the fvwm web site using php.
At the moment I am working on a concept making the
screenshot and maybe download pages generic, so that it will
be easier to add new shots, scripts, pics and information.
Users won't be allowed to do changes but it will be much
easier for the maintainer to add resources to the web
site. Since my time is quite limited (full-time work and
one-year old son :-) progress is quite poor.

If you would like to do some work on the web site you might
get cvs access, but I am not the one to be asked for that.

> How is it? Has somebody free webspace for a wiki or does
> the maintainer of the hompage want us all to send our
> scripts with descriptions and images to him?

If it is small you could send it to the fvwm-mailing list,
if it is bigger please provide a link were we can
download it.

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Mario Domgörgen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:20:34 +0200

> posted is good we will put it on the web site.

Mailing-lists,irc and wiki have many things in common. I prefer wikis
before lists because the information is sorted and easier to find than
searching for subjects in a archive of a list. I had always the feeling
that here are a lot of god hints that are never getting on the
site... Transparent menus are one thing for example (a bad one, okay,
as this should be really easy to find searching the archive but
neverless), the question hit the mailing list every month or so, but it
is not in the faq ... i'm sure could find some other examples....

> get cvs access, but I am not the one to be asked for that.

I never really got used to things like xml,html or php ... Me would be a
very bad choice to help maintaining a homepage... :)

> if it is bigger please provide a link were we can

When for example a configuration of a panel is suitable for the
homepage i will.... :)

Mario

-- 
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao, until
You bring fresh toner.

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:46:01 +0200

Hi there,

> is not in the faq ... i'm sure could find some other examples....

You are right, currently the web page does not provide good
configs and setups. As I said I am going to change that. But
it may take some time.

> When for example a configuration of a panel is suitable for the

Certainly, I think we should provide all kinds of configs like for
FvwmButtons, FvwmWindowList, Pager, Menus and so on. It may
just take some time until this this kind of resource pool has
been set up.

If your are going to provide a FvwmButton-setup, please
ensure that it runs as you expect by Reading this config
file using 

Read FvwmButtonrc

So it is easier for other users to use your config. Please
provide pixmaps for the buttons, links to the programs to be
swallowed, a screenshot of the button bar and a short
description.  

Regards, Uwe

---

From: "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:56:39 +0200

> identified by it's IP address only.

Hm, other Wikis that I've used word fine (e.g. WikiPedia or the EMACS Wiki). 
But maybe that really involves some good administration. So, why not try it 
out? Maybe it works, maybe not.

> something, since it will be just to much.

I see the advantages of a Wiki in it being an intermediate thing between the 
FAQ (which is very slow to update and possibly can't cover as much content) 
and the mailing lists (which are there for discussion and not to find ready 
made solutions).

> place them together with a screenshot and description on the

Hm, then I would have a couple of things to contribute. Among other things
1. a setup of a simple clock running in an rxvt that can be swallowed in the
   panel,
2. a setup of a simple tool to watch log files (again running in an rxvt)
   including the neccessary FVWM menu setup,
3. a setup for geometric arrangement and management of desktops (i.e. they
   are navigatable by keyboard shortcuts, and are not arranged in a linear
   fashion),
4. a method to include menus for CodeWeavers CXOffice and CXPlugin.

All these things took me quite some time to set up and are of general 
interest. In addition I would for example like to see other people's small 
one-liners for clocks, dial up utilities, etc..

Would you really add this to the FAQ?

Would I post it to the mailing list? No, because I don't want to waste my 
time to dig it out, add some explanatory text and just see it vanishing in 
the archives.

> saves the user time (and nerves :-)

Higher quality? - maybe. Users time and nerves? - probably not. Let's not 
forget what costs really time and nerves: browsing the mailing list 
archives and trying to forge things by oneself.

Felix
(just wondering why there is so much of a discussion trying to prevent 
someone from contributing something that might come in handy)

-- 
To contact me in private don't reply but send mail to
    felix DOT klee AT inka DOT de

---

From: RvB <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:06:09 +0200

On Tue, Jul 29, 2003 at 08:11:19AM +0200, Uwe Pross wrote:
> stuff is removed.

well. actually everybody who puts up example configuration and other
information on the wiki is also able to remove illegal and unwanted
stuff. so the wiki is maintained by the wiki users itself. the work
needed to maintain the wiki is divided up between its users and saves a
lot of time to everybody. maintaining such a huge information pool would
be a fulltime job for a single person.

> something, since it will be just to much.

at least a wiki would be more organized than mailinglist archives ;) ...
you can have many categories instead of sorting by thread or date. and
then, there is a search function for most wikis.

> saves the user time (and nerves :-)

this would mean, as i said, a lot of effort and time for a maintainer,
while the wiki is maintained by its users itself.

	RvB (Rene van Bevern) <[email-masked]>
		FVWM IRC Channel at irc.freenode.net #fvwm

---

From: Mario Domgörgen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:31:26 +0200

> someone from contributing something that might come in handy)

We talked about that all today on the channel on freenode and decided
to just start away and see how it works. Maybe discussion on
the channel is more straight forwarded, so we would be happy if you
join us there, but naturally that should be also discussed on the list! 

We made  quick and dirty list of thinks we want to see on the wiki:

we need:
  - easy, pastable <pre> for code snippets and config stuff
  - anchors
  - css
  - search function with regexp (hopefully Perl-like)
  - subpages
  - file uploading
  - possibly images
  - diffs
  - diff changes, comment changes, show which "user" made changes 
  
don't need:
  - colors

Webspace can be provided by Rene van Bevern (RvB) ...

Hope some people here like our idea and are willing to make the wiki a
important part of the fvwm-family!

Greetings!
   Mario

-- 
Windoze not found: (C)heer, (P)arty or (D)ance?

---

From: "Paul Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Jul 2003 17:00:54 -0400

%% "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]> writes:

  fek> 4. a method to include menus for CodeWeavers CXOffice and CXPlugin.

Ooh, I'd be interested in that.

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From: RvB <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:33:18 +0200

On Tue, Jul 29, 2003 at 10:31:26PM +0200, Mario Domgörgen wrote:
> [...]

the list mentioned is completely fulfilled by MoinMoin, a phyton wiki
clone.

> Webspace can be provided by Rene van Bevern (RvB) ...

so i did. i put up a configured MoinMoin Wiki on
http://rvb.dyndns.org/FvwmWiki with an fvwm css style and a basic front
page. the next task is finding a suitable structure to sort the data.
don't forget: wiki is teamwork. you are all invited giving ideas on that
topic. for now i will base a template table of contents from the
category of the FAQ.

Maintaining is done by some people from the fvwm freenode channel,
because discussion there is faster than on mailinglists. Namely these
are:
	Rene van Bevern (RvB)
	Stephan Beyer (sbeyer, who is not even on this list)
	Mario Domgörgen (Kanaldrache)
of course others are invited to help us.

you could put a link on the fvwm page where it is well visible.

bye

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:40:48 +0200

Hi RvB,

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, RvB wrote:

> http://rvb.dyndns.org/FvwmWiki

Looks nice, lets see how it goes. 

Just one thing to mention: Currently the logo competition is
in progress. Putting a logo which takes part on the
competition on the wiki page seems preselecting this one,
which is not that fair. 

So until one logo has been chosen as official the official
one I think it is better to remove the logo from the wiki
page.

After this is done I will link the wiki page from the fvwm
homepage. 

Another thing are copyright issues. Is it allowed to take
contents from the wiki pages and place them on the fvwm web
site without asking the author? Does the author give a
permission automatically to distibute his contents?

Regards, Uwe

---

From: "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:21:14 +0200

On Tuesday 29 July 2003 23:00, Paul Smith wrote:
> CodeWeavers CXOffice and CXPlugin

I'll put it in the WIKI and let you know about it.

Felix

---

From: "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:25:09 +0200

> http://rvb.dyndns.org/FvwmWiki with an fvwm css style and a basic front

Thank you! Let's hope that your computer will withstand the increasing 
traffic.

> the next task is finding a suitable structure to sort the data.

Unfortunately I currently don't have much time for discussion and 
maintenance. However, I'm willing to contribute some content (need to read 
the documentation first, though). Due to Paul Smith's request the first 
thing would be instructions on how to include the menus from CodeWeavers 
CXOffice and CXPlugin into FVWM. Any ideas where to put it? What about an 
additional "Menus" section in the configuration section?

> you could put a link on the fvwm page where it is well visible.

I second that. A Wiki needs many active users to be usable. There should at 
least be a link to the WIKI on the FVWM documentation page.

Felix

---

From: "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:27:12 +0200

Felix

---

From: RvB <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:47:16 +0200

> competition on the wiki page seems preselecting this one,

okay, agree with that. i will change the logo.

> permission automatically to distibute his contents?

we could put a kind of disclaimer document on the wiki pages, which sais
that all information provided through the wiki may be used on the
fvwm.org homepage also. maybe with a link to the originating wiki.

bye

---

From: "Felix E. Klee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:13:29 +0200

> I'll put it in the WIKI and let you know about it.

OK, I did it. You can find the information in the Wiki under "Scripts > 
MenuScripts > CodeWeaversMenus".

Felix