Subject: FVWM: fvwm beautiful?

From: Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:25:14 +0100

Hello,

i am an icewm user, but took a look to fvwm now. It is very impressing 
what can be configured in fvwm. It seems that nearly everything is 
possible. But this also is my problem. I do not dare to try fvwm because 
it seems to be very much work to make it behave and look, like i want. 
(Also i have to think deeply about what i want it to look like. btw.: 
why are you using fvwm? What is the most important function/behaviour in 
fvwm for you?)

But why isn't there a good default-Look of fvwm that one can start with 
to experiment? I think many users who see fvwm for the first time say 
"looks like crap" and choose another window manager. IMHO fvwm could be 
a much more often used wm if it looked more friendly for a new user.

OK. Is there e.g. an icewm like configuration for the current stable 
fvwm version that i could try to start with?

Thank you,

Gert

--
Visit the official FVWM web page at <URL: http://www.fvwm.org/>.
To unsubscribe from the list, send "unsubscribe fvwm" in the body of a
message to [email-masked].
To report problems, send mail to [email-masked].

---

From: Tenebrae <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:52:50 -0800 (PST)

> why are you using fvwm? What is the most important function/behaviour in

I am using FVWM because:
a) it was the first wm that I got help with - a sysadmin where I worked
loaned me his dot file.
b) it doesn't take up a lot of resources.  Enlightenment looks gorgeous
out of the box, but it wouldn't run very effectively on my system.  If I
wanted bloat, I'd use Windows XP.
c) There is this wonderful friendly mailing list to get help!
d) Even now that I have a better system, I still am using FVWM because I'd
rather use my system's resources on doing stuff rather than pretty ripple
effects or whatever.
e) I have a pretty good understanding of the easily-editable-in-vi config
file now.

> a much more often used wm if it looked more friendly for a new user.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!  What looks good to you may not look
good to me.
Besides, it's kinda like some of the outfits I wear to a club sometimes.
I look so good, but I can't move.  :/  What fun is that?

> fvwm version that i could try to start with?

Probably, somewhere.
Have you looked at the screenshots at www.fvwm.org?  I think my dot file
is up there with my config as are several others.
I love example dot files.
								-Tenebrae.
---
The sending of any unsolicited email advertising messages to this domain
may result in the imposition of civil liability against you in accordance
with Cal. Bus. & Prof. Code Section 17538.45.

---

From: Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 19:35:57 +0100

> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!  What looks good to you may not look

Ack. But one thing that comes to my mind is the sloppy focus. I think 
most new users are used to the click-to-focus-modul. All 
fvwm-default-configs that i saw use sloppy.

> Have you looked at the screenshots at www.fvwm.org?  I think my dot file

Yes. Some look very good but the descriptions sound like it is much work 
to get there.

> is up there with my config as are several others.

One thing that i do not like in your configuration is the (i guess it 
is) fvwmbutton-panel that needs very much space. I would like to have as 
much space on the desktop as possible. Only a flat taskbar is "allowed" 
;) This taskbar should also contain buttons to switch the desktops (see 
below).

What i like in icewm:
The taskbar with simple menu.
Changing and configuring themes is very simple:
Changing desktops is very simple:
- click on taskbar-buttons to change it, together with ALT the currently 
focused window is moved to the clicked desktop, but the desktop is not 
changed;
- ctrl-alt-cursor-left/right; together with shift the currently focused 
window is taken to the next desktop.
- it is small and fast
- there are some simple but good configuration tools available.

What is missing in icewm:
- free tabbing of windows (a tab-bar should only occur above a window if 
the windows is stuck together with another window).
- tabbing in the taskbar (as in the gnome-taskbar, as i think; e.g. 
multiple nedit windows are put together into one button that opens a 
menu with the nedit-window-list.)

What i do like in fvwm as far as i know it yet
- the virtual desktops that can be divided into pages; together with the 
FVWMPager this gives a great huge-screen-feeling when using the right 
mouse-button to scroll over the desktop. I am not sure if this can be 
used more efficiently than the icewm-desktops, but it look interesting. 
Here i would like to configure fvwm so that the pager (dis-)appears when 
pressing a hotkey so that it does not consume to much space. Ideally the 
buttons in the taskbar should address the pages on the current desktop 
and the "active" pages on all other desktops.
- the simple motif-look (first it did look boring, but now i like it, 
because it is so very simple)
- it is small and fast
- configuration possibilities => much to play ;) (but as i said, it's 
time consuming)

Ciao,

Gert

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:43:09 -0500

> Yes. Some look very good but the descriptions sound like it is much work 

If you don't want to do a lot of work, use the fvwm-themes package:

http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: Glyn Millington <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:50:45 +0000

Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]> writes:

> Yes. Some look very good but the descriptions sound like it is much
> work to get there.

It takes some!  Have you seen this one yet?

http://fvwm.sourceforge.net/tmp/migo-desktop-20021122.png

Gorgeous! A serious incitement to envy, but also to settle down on a cold
winter evening and work out how it's done. It's not too hard, especially
with bits of the recipe built into the screenshot!

Have you discovered fvwm-themes yet?  A good way to explore
possibilities, by playing with elements of the ready-made themes and
colorsets. 
http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/

FvwmConsole is a good way of experimenting with tweaks to your
desktop. Other ways are suggested in the FVWM FAQ

All those button bars etc can be set up to disappear at a key-stroke.

Good luck!

Glyn

---

From: Tenebrae <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:54:59 -0800 (PST)

> ;) This taskbar should also contain buttons to switch the desktops (see

See?  Eye of the beholder.  ;)
I like my FvwmButtons and silly renamed Start button and icons and stuff.
Some people have totally iconless configurations.
								-Tenebrae.
---
The sending of any unsolicited email advertising messages to this domain
may result in the imposition of civil liability against you in accordance
with Cal. Bus. & Prof. Code Section 17538.45.

---

From: RvB <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:34:37 +0100

On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 06:25:14PM +0100, Gert Brinkmann wrote:

hi :)

> a much more often used wm if it looked more friendly for a new user.

i especcialy hated the pre-configuration of fvwm in SuSE 5.3 or 6.0 ...
they had huge fvwmbuttons including xbiff and xeyes ... and oversized
buttons for their tools. also the feel was rather bad, but i
nevertheless used it because i was low on memory and KDE 1.0 didn't run
very well, the other windowmanagers just were not powerful enough. and
with some work fvwm was really great to use ...

here are some pics of my recent fvwm configurations ... they're all
quite similar in feel, but different in look (you don't see the feel in
screenshots ;)) ...

http://rvb.dyndns.org/screens/scrn-07-19-2002.png
this is the first screenshot of my fvwm "comeback" of july ... i've used
fvwm 3 years before and finally came back to it ... 

http://rvb.dyndns.org/screens/scrn-11-09-2002.jpeg
this one is quite "dirty" or dusty ... it doesn't have titlebars at all,
and very thin borders because i hardly use any of them ;)
both configurations are iconless

http://rvb.dyndns.org/screens/scrn-01-14-2003.jpeg
and this is the one i am using at the moment ... after the upgrade to
fvwm 2.5.5, using transparency, translucent icons and title buttons
(more for active windows ...) ...

if you want it could send you the config files for these of course :)

bye
	RvB <[email-masked]>
		http://rvb.dyndns.org

---

From: Rob Park <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:14:03 -0700

> ;) This taskbar should also contain buttons to switch the desktops (see 

You might have liked my old fvwm config. There were no permanent UI
elements... (no taskbar, nothing like that. you had the whole screen to
maximize a window).

Left clicking on the desktop got you a transient pager, middle clicking
got you a list of running programs, and right clicking got you a menu
for launching apps. _extremely_ minimalistic, moreso than blackbox ;)

But I have a bigger screen now and I've added FvwmButtons and FvwmPager
as permanent UI elements on the right side of my screen...

-- 
Rob Park
http://www.ualberta.ca/~rbpark
--
Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
--
Visit the official FVWM web page at <URL: http://www.fvwm.org/>.
To unsubscribe from the list, send "unsubscribe fvwm" in the body of a
message to [email-masked].
To report problems, send mail to [email-masked].

---

From: Cameron Simpson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:17:58 +1100

On 18:25 14 Jan 2003, Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]> wrote:
| OK. Is there e.g. an icewm like configuration for the current stable 
| fvwm version that i could try to start with?

Hmm. I could kick you the .fvwmrc I made for my girlfriend, who is an icewm
user.

It's really my setup tweaked to look more like hers, so it's not a _real_
icewm clone. In fact, it may be very little like your icewm setup;
I really made the least change to my (unusual) setup to give her a
similar look and feel.

In particular the taskbar is uglier under fvwm when withdrawn (no borders,
so you see bars where the button borders are) and doesn't disappear fast
enough (it has a fixed 1 second delay and smooth withdraw under fvwm,
and her icewm withdraws quickly and instantly).

I agree that the vanilla FVWM is pretty ugly, probably owing much of
its appearance to twm's default appearance, and so on back into history.
But as I recall it has a popup config menu in one of the mouse buttons
on the root window you might want to use as a starting point.
-- 
Cameron Simpson, DoD#743        [email-masked]    http://www.zip.com.au/~cs/

I doubt that people abuse themselves with MSDOS to prove their reproductive
fitness.	- [email-masked] (Trif)
--
Visit the official FVWM web page at <URL: http://www.fvwm.org/>.
To unsubscribe from the list, send "unsubscribe fvwm" in the body of a
message to [email-masked].
To report problems, send mail to [email-masked].

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:57:59 -0800

> with bits of the recipe built into the screenshot!

Do you have a config file for this setup?

Mark

---

From: Maciej Kalisiak <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:41:03 -0500

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet in this thread is that
"configuring it completely to one's tastes" is an elusive goal for many,
including myself.  I've spent embarassing amounts of time configuring various
window managers "to perfection", only to realize that I didn't like the result.
In fact, the themes and layouts that I've used the longest turned out to be
ones which I've futzed with the least.  There's something to be said for having
this done by someone competent in UI design and color coordinating (consider
the reason for Apple's success), at least as a starting point for the general
user.  "Choice" is great, until it becomes an overhwelming sea in which you
helplessly drown.

-- 
Maciej Kalisiak       mac "at" dgp.toronto.edu       www.dgp.toronto.edu/~mac

---

From: Bob Crochelt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:40:15 -0900 (AKST)

Gert, why not check out fvwm-themes??

Regards

-- 
Bob Crochelt, MD, PhD, FACS

PO Box 9399
Ketchikan, Alaska 99901-4399

[email-masked] or 
[email-masked]

---

From: Glyn Millington <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:35:55 +0000

> Do you have a config file for this setup?

No - but as I said the heart of the recipe is there in the screenshot ;-)

Glyn

---

From: Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:23:43 +0100

> for launching apps. _extremely_ minimalistic, moreso than blackbox ;)

This sounds interesting. But what i dislike a little bit are the 
required clicks onto the desktop. This means that you always have to see 
a part of the root-window. Perhaps a good approach for this was, having 
1 pixel at the borders always uncovered (you should not be allowed to 
maximize, resize or move windows about this 1 pixel area). Is this 
possible somehow? Alternatively i would use hotkeys.

Thanks,

Gert

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:34:48 +0100

> possible somehow? Alternatively i would use hotkeys.

I have my root menu bound to Alt-Space and am quite happy with it.
I tried binding it to a Shift-Button2 click on the window
decorations too, but I never got used to it.  Requires too much
thinking where the pointer is.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:49:46 +0100

> quite similar in feel, but different in look (you don't see the feel in

What about a feelshot? :)

> fvwm 3 years before and finally came back to it ... 

What did you use in the meantime?

How do you handle windows without a titlebar?

> (more for active windows ...) ...

Why does the galeon window have a titlebar?

> if you want it could send you the config files for these of course :)

Yes, thank you. Perhaps i can check some things out in these. Especially 
the second none 2.5 config would be interesting. (debian stable does 
only have 2.4 yet, and i think this is enough new to learn for me).

Gert

---

From: Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:10:30 +0100

> Gert, why not check out fvwm-themes??

I should do that. I thought this would encrease complexity of the 
configuration and i wanted to start with the base system. When checking 
the fvwmthemesFAQ after it was mentioned in this thread yesterday i read 
something about feel-themes. This sounds good and perhaps it is the more 
simple approach to fvwm.

Ciao,

Gert

---

From: Gert Brinkmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:14:37 +0100

> thinking where the pointer is.

I think i would bind it to "left-windows-key + click anywhere".

Gert

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:26:50 +0000

> thinking where the pointer is.

If you want ideas for functional and consistent bindings, take a look at
the fvwm-themes FAQ, question 2.3, available on the web too.

In fvwm-themes the root menu is bound to Alt-Mouse1 inside any window.
Similarly, Alt-Mouse3 inside a window does the same as Mouse3 on the root,
but in the window context. Alt-Mouse2 inside a window duplicates Mouse2 on
decorations (Move + RaiseLower), but simulating the root's Mouse2 (window
list) inside a window is possible too by Alt-Mouse3 + "Switch to...".

Additionally, Alt-F1 anywhere is the same as Mouse1 on the root,
Alt-F2 == Mouse2, Alt-F3 == Mouse3. The root window is never needed.

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: RvB <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:28:55 +0100

> How do you handle windows without a titlebar?

well ... alt+leftclick in window moves ... alt+middle click resizes ...
and i never use the title bar buttons because i don't need my numblock,
and so numpad plus is for maximizing the window, while numpad minus is
for minimizing it ... the rest can be done from hotkeys in the winops
menu, which is reached by the left windows key.
i always close windows with alt+x ... in my recent config i also never
use the titlebar, i just have it because it looks cool ;)

> Why does the galeon window have a titlebar?

they all have titlebars ... it's just that all my terminals have the
titlebars at bottom ... because the shell prompt is usually at the
bottom and i can see the window title better ;) ...

> only have 2.4 yet, and i think this is enough new to learn for me).

debian unstable neither has 2.5 :/ ... bit i'll send you my recent
config shortly :)

bye
	RvB <[email-masked]>
		http://rvb.dyndns.org

---

From: Rob Park <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:40:40 -0700

> possible somehow? Alternatively i would use hotkeys.

Funny thing is, I told Fvwm that it could maximize to the full size of
the screen (1024x768 at the time), and I could still access the menus by
clicking along the screen edge. I guess Fvwm puts a border there, or
maybe I accidentally configured it to put the menus on the windows
borders as well as the desktop. Either way, I could still access them
when there was a maximized window present.

Are you a turtle?

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:29:18 -0500

> when there was a maximized window present.

There's a "pan frame" running around the edge of the screen that
fvwm uses for edge scrolling.

---

From: Rob Park <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:32:11 -0700

> fvwm uses for edge scrolling.

Right, and I have edge scrolling disabled.

A copy of the universe is not what is required of art; one of the damned
things is ample.
		-- Rebecca West

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:28:55 -0500

> Right, and I have edge scrolling disabled.

There's more than one way to disable edge scrolling.
If you disable edge scrolling with:

EdgeThickness 0

then the pan frames will go away too.

---

From: Rob Park <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:18:58 -0700

> then the pan frames will go away too.

Ah, I see. I had disabled it by setting EdgeResistance to be really high
;)

-- 
Rob Park
http://www.ualberta.ca/~rbpark
--
In Tulsa, Oklahoma, it is against the law to open a soda bottle without
the supervision of a licensed engineer.
--
Visit the official FVWM web page at <URL: http://www.fvwm.org/>.
To unsubscribe from the list, send "unsubscribe fvwm" in the body of a
message to [email-masked].
To report problems, send mail to [email-masked].