Subject: RE: FVWM: kde and gnome compliant?

From: Peter Bismuti <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:43:56 -0800

A few more questions if you don't mind.  What, if any, desktop environment
runs with FVWM by default?  Can you reccomend a reference to some
documentation so I can try and get a better grip on this subject?

Thx 
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul D. Smith
To: Peter Bismuti
Cc: [email-masked]'
Sent: 1/31/01 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: FVWM: kde and gnome compliant?

%% Peter Bismuti <[email-masked]> writes:

  pb> I'm noticing that there are a lot of new clients that
  pb> people are running on KDE and gnome, for example my
  pb> coworkder is using a new mail client that seems to work
  pb> quite nice.  

  pb> Is FVWM KDE and GNOME compliant? Meaning can I run these
  pb> clients under FVWM?  If not, when will they be?  

The 2.3.x betas and forthcoming 2.4.x release of FVWM are GNOME
compliant.

As soon as someone who knows something about KDE implements it or helps
one of us implement it, FVWM will be KDE compliant, too.

Please note that even if the WM is not <desktop>-compliant, you can
still run the applications!

The applications will put up special hints that a compliant WM will use
to allow enhanced behaviors, so they will appear to work better in some
ways (dealing with WM issues like movement, iconification, etc.) with a
compliant WM.  But, they will still fundamentally _work_ with FVWM,
regardless.

  pb> With the big push towards linux (did you read CNN today?,
  pb> IBM has promised 1 billion in developement in the Linux
  pb> environment), it seems that these two WM are getting 
  pb> most of the attention.  Is it possible that there will
  pb> come a day when it is no longer feasible to stay loyal
  pb> to FVWM?  

Please remember that FVWM is a window manager, and KDE and GNOME are
desktop environments.  Not the same thing at all.

Both KDE and GNOME have window managers as components of the complete
desktop.  Both allow you to use a _different_ window manager if you
choose.

So, you can use FVWM with KDE and/or GNOME if you want.  GNOME, in
particular, has a suite of managers that it works with and doesn't seem
to really prefer one over the rest.

Some parts of FVWM overlap with some parts of the desktops; for example,
FVWM has an icon manager/window list module, and KDE/GNOME have their
own.  That's no problem; you pick the one you like and use that, and
don't use the other.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
 Paul D. Smith <[email-masked]>    HASMAT--HA Software Methods &
Tools
 "Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad
Scientist
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
   These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for
them.
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From: Erik Steffl <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:35:29 -0800

> documentation so I can try and get a better grip on this subject?

  seeing is believing:

  try to run the X server itself: X :1 (in most default linux configs
that would start new X server on virtual console 8) you should see only
grey (sort of, black&white pattern) destop, no windows just mouse cursor
(cross)

  notice that you cannot really do anything because X does not have any
built in support for moving windows, menus or anything similar. it's
just a server that waits until somebody wants to draw something (an x
client).

  now go back to where you started X from (ctrl z bg <enter> to get the
command line back) and start e.g. xterm -display :1 & then switch back
to X server and you will see xterm but notice that it has no borders, no
title it's just plain window that you cannot resize or move.

  now start a window manager - for example fvwm, you can later kill it a
start different window managers (you probably have at least twm) just to
see that window manager is just another program... you could possibly
run the X without window manager even (some kiosk application or
something like that).

  that's all you need, you do not need any extra desktop environment.

  when it comes to gnome and kde the whole picture is suddenly muddy as
hell - for some reason they try to persuade user that there's just one
thing - the gnome or kde, respectively. but the truth is that there are
quite a few independent things that you need (or might want):

  a way to launch applications
  a way to see which apps are running and switch from one to another
  virtual desktop
  sound server so that more than one app can output sound at the same
time
  drag and drop support
  ...

  there is number of application for each of the above, gnome and kde
are basically packaged sets of apps  that are somewhat integrated
(common settings etc.), but there is no need to run any particular
desktop environment, in most cases the window manager is sufficient (to
get the work done, you might still want to run gnome or kde for various
reasons).

  you can start various parts of gnome or kde as you like, you can also
run various kde and gnome apps.

  hope this clarifies it a bit. I am not aware of good docs for this,
browsing some book on administration of X might help...

	erik