Subject: Notification: incoming/420

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:29:39 -0500 (CDT)

FVWM Bug Tracking notification

new message incoming/420

Message summary for PR#420
	From: [email-masked]
	Subject: themes and icons (beautification enhancement)
	Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:29:36 -0500 (CDT)
	0 replies 	0 followups

====> ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOLLOWS <====

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From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 16 Jul 1999 14:39:23 -0400

%% [email-masked] writes:

  f> FVWM Bug Tracking notification
  f> new message incoming/420

  f> Please include themes for fvwm with the basic distribution.

This is a very interesting bug report.

I'll make a few comments on the current thinking (as I understand it!)
for the 2.4 release.  Maybe others can comment as well.

First, note that although we do ship some icons currently we install
none of them.  Not only is there no infrastructure in configure to find
a good place, or any standard place, but, as you say, they're almost all
very ugly.

Second, my understanding of the plan for 2.4 was that we weren't going
to provide any icons at all... see the next points :)

Third, we know our default configs are pitiful.  We have begun efforts
to rework them and have a set of web "examples" in a CVS archive which
will someday make an appearance on the homepage (Jason et.al., do we
have a plan for making this public yet?) with nicer setups.  It would be
nice to have a default config that's pleasant and simple, I agree.  The
current 2.2 default config is merely a random hodgepodge of examples of
features.

One of the complications with this is that it's possible to build fvwm
without, for example, pixmap support--then what?  Multiple defaults,
with bitmaps _and_ pixmaps?  Also, what about app icons?  The FVWM team
doesn't want to put 100's of K of icons in the distribution, esp. when
they'll get out-of-date, etc.  It seems there is a good split here
between the window manager with perhaps some very basic stuff, and the
themes/icons/etc. packages.  I think it's up to anyone who uses fvwm as
a default WM (Linux distros, for example) to put those together, not
necessarily us.

Fourth, there is some work going on to get simple default graphical
configuration of fvwm modules, etc. using FvwmForm, and there is also
work in 2.3.x to make some types of "theme-ing" simpler: for example,
it looks like there will be default color schemes that can be defined in
fvwm, then all the modules will be able to use them to get a similar
color scheme without having to change each module's
background/foreground (for example).

Fifth, I'm not sure what's going on on themes.org, etc.  Note that we
have splintered off another group of people interested in this type of
thing, the wm-icons group http://wm-icons.dhs.org/  There are also some
links on our site to other pages containing configuration examples,
etc.

I agree it's in a state of extreme flux and that's frustrating for all
concerned.  I think most of the current main fvwm-workers are mainly
coders, not UI designers.  We'd love to find someone with more of a UI
bent who was willing to work on improving all these areas and smoothing
them out.

As for themes support, we've been so far taking a "wait and see"
attitude: we don't _know_ what kinds of things people will want in a
themes package, or what fvwm could do to make themes easier to develop.
We were king of hoping that "themes experts" would come and say "gee, if
fvwm could do this and that things would be much simpler".

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Paul D. Smith <[email-masked]>         Network Management Development
 "Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad Scientist
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---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:07:21 +0300 (IDT)

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 [email-masked] (John Califf) wrote:

> Please include themes for fvwm with the basic distribution. This would
> require
> changing the default and/or sample configs provided to use the themes
> engine as
> used at themes.org for fvwm2.

  [Jason, I think, you must change column width in JitterBug from 85 to
  74 anywhere]

John, you are mostly right.
I say "mostly", because there are many people who just like the way it is
now. Even now everyone can setup everything for himself how ever he likes.
But providing theme examples and, probably, the theme engine can be nice.
We just need to support also those who don't like multiple config files
and prefer one big personalized ~/.fvwm2rc.

About fvwm.themes.org. I think their theme format is not complete enough.
It does not enable switching between themes via menu, for example (last
time I have chacked).

Unlike other window managers (say, WindowMaker), fvwm themes are harder to
define, because there are so much things that fvwm can configure (like
modules, module attributes, menu styles, window buttons, titles, borders,
other window decorations and styles, not talking about icons and sound).

I am fighting with session managers now, but hopefully will have time to
check possible theme solutions. We need a user support and contributions.

> Also, please provide a set of more attractive icons. These can be got for
> free from
> a variety of sources. (Gnome, NextStep style icons, etc.). Anything would
> be an

Do you want these icons to be included twice or more times on any system
that has both fvwm and gnome (or fvwm and WindowMaker)? Some other 
solution is needed (like separate icon distribution, check out wm-icons
project) than just copying icons from other places to fvwm.

Also I fail to see how you can use gnome icons for general fvwm purposes
(they are very special) and there are not enough icons provided with
WindowMaker to even partially complete its own wm-icons icon set.

> improvement over what is now provided. It would be better to provide no
> icons than
> what you now include. These indescribably ugly icons are the number one
> reason why
> many people have reacted negatively to the Linux or unix desktop because
> fvwm has
> been the default window manager for Linux, at least, for a long time, with
> these
> ugly icons. Please, do not include this icon set again in your releases or
> in your
> snapshots.   

I think these problems are solved by KDE and GNOME projects, they are
oriented to non-unix users more than fvwm.

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: "Jason E. Kibblewhite" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:46:14 -0600

> check possible theme solutions. We need a user support and contributions.

Well I've basicly got most of the themes stuff figured out for myself, I can
change the theme and all the modules are killed and restarted with a new decor
settings and such via a FvwmScript, plus then new stuff in all the modules to
share fvwm2's decor type settings.  Then only problem that I can find/can't
figure out is the titlebar buttons and how  if a theme I have has no maximize
button, but the theme does that I use how to remap them the way I like so as
not to change the feel.  Or even remap them, doesn't really bother me too much
if close is moved from the left to the right side, but it doesn't carry over
too well to other people's setup if they have Mouse 0 1 A close and I have
Mouse 0 1 A func closefunc for example.  Trivial to parse for this kinda info
and remap the buttons properly the way a user wants if the there was some kind
of standard setup we could base it from.

Right now I even have a FvwmScript like wmaker's when you edit the window
properties and like remove titlebars and such, (doesn't quite work but I'd
playing with it.) so adding in Style changes is trivial if we setup some kind
of standard rc files and reads or something.  The scripts are pretty useless
unless someone would have the same read rc file commands thats the scripts are
looking for.

P.S. I haven't had time to play with the new FvwmTheme module but I read the
man page and it looks like a great step in the right direction.

---

From: Jason L Tibbitts III <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:24:21 -0500

>>>>> "MG" == Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]> writes:

MG> [Jason, I think, you must change column width in JitterBug from 85 to
MG> 74 anywhere]

OK.

 - J<

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:35:09 +0300 (IDT)

On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Jason E. Kibblewhite wrote:

> Well I've basicly got most of the themes stuff figured out for myself

Fine. Can you send your script (and entire filesystem structure needed to
run it) to the list or, if you prefer, to me personally? I would like to
comment on it.

Regards,
Mikhael.