Subject: Windowlist: M-Tab hardwired?

From: Peter Daum <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:36:31 +0200 (MEST)

Hi,

when trying fvwm2.3.3, I ran into the following annoying behavior:

I have no binding for M-tab (<alt>+<tab>) because I need
that key combination for some applications. In 2.3.3 however,
when I hit that key combination, the window list pops up (more
specifically: the window list for the current desk, regardless
of the mouse position always at the same location at the left
edge of the screen). 

Furthermore, when scrolling through the window list with the
cursor keys, most entries are skipped without any obvious system.

Regards,
            Peter

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---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:12:34 -0400

Peter Daum <[email-masked]> writes:
> when I hit that key combination, the window list pops up

Sorry you are  finding it annoying, I felt  that most users would find
it helpful.

In the 2.3.x series that   key combination is automatically bound   as
follows:

Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort

I'm not sure hardwired is the right word. You must be thinking of some
other WM.  :-)  You can remove the binding with:

Key Tab A M -

> (more

I've never seen it do this.  Maybe someone else has a comment...

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From: Peter Daum <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:57:55 +0200 (MEST)

Hi,

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Dan Espen wrote:

[...]
> Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort

Some fallback bindings would indeed be extremely helpful, but
only in 2 cases:

- there is no configuration available at all
- the configuration is not usable (very easy to get when you use
  M4: just forget a closing quote ...)

Wouldn't it be better to only use the default configuration in
these situations? (I'm not so sure what would be a good way to
detect these cases, though.)

[...]
> I've never seen it do this.  Maybe someone else has a comment...

It seems like this is a bug in the menu code: In all menus, the
up and down keys usually only toggle between the 1st and the 3rd
entry in the menu. Furthermore, it seems like whenever a horizontal
position for a menu is spezified, it shows up at the left edge
instead.

Regards,
                Peter

---

From: Steve Robbins <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:49:45 -0400 (EDT)

> other WM.  :-)  You can remove the binding with:

Hmmm... this sounds like something that ought to be in NEWS -- it is a
user-visible change.  

I'd also suggest that the way to return to the old behaviour also ought to
be in NEWS.  Or in the FAQ with a pointer in the NEWS item.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:36:09 -0400

> be in NEWS.  Or in the FAQ with a pointer in the NEWS item. 

I agree, it should be in the  NEWS and the fvwm2 man  page.  In fact I
really thought I put it in both.  I'll get to it.

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:58:30 -0700

> position for a menu is spezified, it shows up at the left edge

That's why we don't recommend to use alpha releases. This has long been 
fixed in CVS, but it slipped into 2.3.3 before I realised it.

Bye

Dominik ^_^

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---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:25:09 -0400

>   M4: just forget a closing quote ...)

Sorry, I'm not ignoring your comments, I'm busy right now.

I didn't think so.

My reasoning being:

  If the window list is going to  be bound to  some key, its better if
all users  bind it  to the  same  key.  One way  to  do that is  set a
default binding.

  99 out of  100 users  are  going to  be  perfectly happy with  m-tab
pre-bound.  The  other 1% should have  no trouble undoing  the default
binding.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:15:48 -0400 (EDT)

> all users  bind it  to the  same  key.  One way  to  do that is  set a

The only thing that I can see where this binding could actually be
a problem is that most users coming from a Windows background (the
ones that are looking for WIn9x configurations) will expect Alt-Tab to
behave a certain way.  The WindowList function, while useful, will not
work that way.  This could be confusing for such users.

Personally, I prefer binding Root+Mouse2 to displaying the WindowList,
since it looks very much like a menu.  This is, however, just a personal
preference.

Maybe we should have some documentation as to exactly WHAT fvwm2 will
do in the event that it cannot get a configuration file:

    Is there a root menu oe mwnua?  If so, how do I activate it or them,
    and what will be on it or them?

	[Here is one place where I think that fvwm2 could be improved.
	The current default menu, with only one item which exits the
	window manager, is rather limited.  How about a local xterm
	and a restart option?]

    Are there any hot-keys?  If so, what are they and what do they do?

    What decorations are put on windows (active and otherwise) by
    default?  What do these decorations do and how do I use them?

	[Can windows be resized or moved?  Can they be minimized?]

    What is the focus policy?  Are there any other policies that are
    enforced by the window manager which occur by default in the
    absense of a configuration file?

This should be defined and specified in the fvwm2(1) manpage.

-- 
Larry Gensch					      [email-masked]

               "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:48:02 -0400

> work that way.  This could be confusing for such users.

It took a while for it to sink in that  our FAQ always mentioned M-TAB
and the "original" was A-TAB.  I think this  makes sense however since
Exceed users  would surely want  A-TAB untouched, leaving M-TAB as the
logical default.

> since it looks very much like a menu.  This is, however, just a personal

Yep.  I'd still want some key binding.

>     and what will be on it or them?

Have you checked the latest CVS?  From the fvwm2 man page:

.SH BUILT IN KEY AND MOUSE BINDINGS
The following commands are built-in to fvwm2:
.EX
Key Help R A Popup MenuFvwmRoot
Key F1 R A Popup MenuFvwmRoot
Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort
.EE

The "Help" and "F1" keys invoke a built-in menu that fvwm2 creates.
This is primarily for new users that haven't created their own configuration
file.  Either key on the root (background) window will popup an menu
which should help you get started.

The tab key pressed anywhere with the "meta" key held down will pop-up
a window list.

There is no reason why you can't override or remove these bindings.
To remove the window list binding, use this:
.EX
Key Tab A M -
.EE

> 	window manager, is rather limited.  How about a local xterm

Now I know you haven't checked the latest  CVS.  The builtin menu will
start an xterm,  invoke  a setup dialog, or   exit.  The setup  dialog
creates the users config file(s) and has a restart option.

>     Are there any hot-keys?  If so, what are they and what do they do?

See above

>     default?  What do these decorations do and how do I use them?

With no config file, there are no decorations, and  the only thing you
can really do well is use the xterm or setup dialog.

> 	[Can windows be resized or moved?  Can they be minimized?]

Not until you've done the setup stuff.

>     absense of a configuration file?

I  don't remember.  I'm    not sure if   the default  focus policy  is
important enough to be in the man page.   What would be important is a
tool that lets a user control his focus policy  without having to look
in and change the default .fvwm2rc.

> This should be defined and specified in the fvwm2(1) manpage.

All  the  above represents my  current  opinions.   I'm  still open to
suggestions.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:02:43 -0400 (EDT)

> Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort

This is good, and a real start.  However, is MenuFvwmRoot defined in
the man page?

I don't have CVS access through the firewall here at work, and I'm not
really gung-ho about using a possibly buggy window manager on my work
system.  At home, that's another story.  [smile]

If fvwm 2.3 releases start getting stable in preparation for an
upcoming 2.4, I would be willing to use those, most certainly to test
my environments:  at work, I run a pre-release Tru64 Unix 5.0 system, at
home, I run SunOS 4.1.3, Linux 2.2.9, AIX 3.2.5.  All these systems
have unique monitor sizes and/or resolutions from 8 bit to 16 bit to 32
bit depths, and from 1024x768 to 1152x864 to 1280x1024 to 1600x1200. 
It's a testament to fvwm2 that I can survive with a single
configuration file that will work perfectly and almost identically on
all these environments!

> creates the users config file(s) and has a restart option.

Fine.  Is this menu documented?

> All  the  above represents my  current  opinions.   I'm  still open to

I was just making a few suggestions in my previous post.  I am glad to
see that some of them have been anticipated and are already implemented
in CVS.

When 2.3.x is in a stable enough state, I'll be glad to download a
snapshot.

On another subject, I have heard comments that the module interface may
have changed in the new release.  Does that mean that a module that was
built for fvwm2.2 (specifically, tkgoodstuff) may need to be modified
before it will work for 2.3+?

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:24:52 -0400

> This is good, and a real start.  However, is MenuFvwmRoot defined in

Only to the extent shown.

> system.  At home, that's another story.  [smile]

I understand not using a buggy window manager at work.
I should have been clearer on the CVS issue.  We have nightly snapshots
on our servers.  All you need is ftp.

> Fine.  Is this menu documented?

Only to the extent shown.

> see that some of them have been anticipated and are already implemented

I understand.

> When 2.3.x is in a stable enough state, I'll be glad to download a

I'd say its pretty stable now.  By this evening, who knows.
Actually I download CVS updates every day or 2.  Its pretty rare that
I can't actually use the current CVS.

> before it will work for 2.3+?

Not sure...

> Larry Gensch					      [email-masked]

Sorry to keep copying you and the workers list.  I would guess you are
on the workers list, but what good is a guess?

---

From: Brad Giaccio <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:41:32 -0400

> on our servers.  All you need is ftp.

I don't think I understand that logic by managets all use this buggy
windowing system all day long.  I think it called Windoze something or
other put out by this small company Micro something or other

:)

By the way I have been happilly running current CVS every since we went
to CVS at work.  Why do you think I send in such quick patches on fatal 
errors?

Brad

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