Subject: Re: Notification: incoming/170

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:12:00 +0100

On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 08:55:58AM -0800, Michael Han wrote:
> Previously...
> >I use mouse button 1 to move (on border, titlebar, corner ..) and if I
> >use globalopts MouseFocusClickReises then I can't move Netscape's find
> >window (it has only border)
> 
> I don't think this is exactly a bug as everything is working as
> intended here. What you probably want, given your configuration, is:
> Style "*" DecorateTransient
> so the dialogs and other goofy things will get titles and borders.

Given the rate at which we get questions/bug reports on this I
wonder if we should make 'DecorateTransients' the default (to
be more precise I wonder why it isn't already).

Thoughts?

Bye

Dominik

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Dominik Vogt, [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

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From: Patrick Rogan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:24:26 -0500

Making 'DecorateTransients' the default makes absolute sense because one
of the biggest complaints I hear from coworkers, help desk users, et al.
is, "Why do some of my frickin windows not have resize/close buttons --
or worse -- title bars!?!".  It's unintuitive for 'NoDecorateTransients'
to be the default behavior.

Having all the bells and whistles on by default (like
'NoDecorateTransients') is a bad thing when it confuses novice (and
experienced) users.

And this frustrates the HELL out of them!  

The "F" in FVWM2 should NOT stand for "Frustrating"...  

Let's turn 'DecorateTransients' on by default for 2.2.  All those in
favor?

~p@

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 "To understand guys, it is essential to remember that, deep down
 inside, they are biological creatures, like jellyfish or trees, 
 only less likely to clean the bathroom."            --Dave Barry

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---

From: Brad Giaccio <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:30:10 -0500

> 'NoDecorateTransients') is a bad thing when it confuses novice (and

Well I guess your experienced users are rather inexperienced then.  A
Transient window by definition of being a Transient doesn't get window
manager decorations it is supposed to be a modal dialog with exclusive
grab used by an application to force you to interact with the dialog.  I
for one just to be sure have NakedTransients defined in my rc file.  If
we are going to completly ignore window hints then we need to make the
change consistent. That would mean making Style "*" DecorateTransient,
HintOverride the default.

Brad
 
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--- There are two kinds of knowledge, you either know the answer or
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From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:56:38 -0500

> HintOverride the default.

I'm glad we got input from at least one "NakedTransients" user.

I decorate transients,  but I  don't  think its  such  a good idea  to
change default behavior just prior to an official release.

My guess is we've had  at least a dozen "DecorateTransient"  questions
in the few years I've read this list.  I  don't remember anyone coming
back with a question as to why this isn't the default behavior.

Perhaps the fact that the option has been undocumented all this time
is the root cause of the problem.

--
Dan Espen
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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:22:13 +0100

> is the root cause of the problem.

Speaking as a novice here (I never cared about this setting until
I lookad at this because of the questions/bug reports) I find it
rather confusiong. I've never seen a window manager that has
transients undecorated by default. I'm sure the average user
does not even know the term 'transient window' and wouldn't know
where to start looking. And finally I don't want to make it the
default before 2.2.

Bye

Dominik

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From: Brad Giaccio <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:45:06 -0500

> Speaking as a novice here (I never cared about this setting until

Face it Dominik you have seen to much fvwm code to rerfer to your self
as a novice. :)

> where to start looking. And finally I don't want to make it the

as for Transients a quick excursion to mwm or Solaris' dt should show
you some totally nude nude transients (Hey that would be a great subject
for a spam message). It doesn't really matter if yhe user knows the
term it matters if the desired affect of the window is achieved, and
if programmers use transients correctlly then the user shouldn't have
trouble decidng what they should do with the window.  Can you tell I've
been righting motif for to long?

Brad

---

From: Steve Robbins <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:40:51 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Brad Giaccio wrote:

> Can you tell I've been righting motif for to long? 
                         ^^^^^^^^

A Freudian slip?  :)

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From: Tim Phipps <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:44:55 +0000

Brad Giaccio wrote:
> grab used by an application to force you to interact with the dialog.

Don't confuse transients with modal dialogs, they are not the same
thing.  Transients are just windows that are associated with another in
some sort of parent/child relationship.  They can be modal but only if
some hints are set (can't find it by looking in the source). In some
cases it is nice to be able to move the transients around.  In a later
email you refer to CDE, if you use dtpad you can open the search/replace
window (which is a transient) and after you've found what you're looking
for you can leave it open and edit in the main window.  It would be a
major PITA to have to close the search window before editing. This is
one of the nice things about X that M*soft Windows doesn't have.

> I for one just to be sure have NakedTransients defined in my rc file.  If

I think there are hints other than Transient_For that mean modal.  I
can't find anything in the ICCCM though, it might be a Motif thing.
Changing the default to DecorateTransient does not break ICCCM
compliance as far as I can tell and I would prefer it as it won't
confuse novices.

Cheers,
Tim.

---

From: Maciej Stachowiak <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:53:01 -0500

> compliance as far as I can tell and I would prefer it as it won't

Motif and Open Look both have modal hints, and special hints to
represent lack of titlebars, borders, etc. Fvwm will respect these
by default (well, not necessarily the modal hints depending on
compile time options). You can override these hints explicitly of
course. ICCCM has no hints to specify particular decorations.

 - Maciej