Subject: alt-tab

From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 21 Jan 1999 13:17:25 -0500

I certainly don't like Windows as an OS, but they have a couple of good
UI ideas: I think the alt-tab behavior of Windows is pretty nice
(although for me, the fact that it operates regardless of which window
has focus is a problem).

I checked out the alt-tab question in the FAQ, and it gives a good
approximation but it just isn't the same.  I wonder about creating an
"alt-tab" module.  Not that I'm in any way thinking of doing it myself,
I'm just musing out-loud :).

Is it even possible to make something like that under X?  I was trying
to think of ways it could be that fast (even on my old 486/66, alt-tab
brings up a window list almost instantaneously).  If the window were
created at all times but just not mapped, it seems like having it mapped
when a key was pressed would be fast enough.

Then the only problem would be emulating the way the alt key controls
what window you choose (when it's released, that window is chosen and
the selector disappears).  Can this be done with existing X events?  Can
you get an event when a modifier like that is lifted?  What about
non-modifier keys (maybe you could pick a "normal" key instead of ALT)?

And, of course, I'm not sure if the interaction between fvwm and modules
could encompass this as-is.

Just random thoughts...

-- 
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 Paul D. Smith <[email-masked]>         Network Management Development
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From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:55:06 -0500

> (although for me, the fact that it operates regardless of which window

It  seems to me that the  biggest way fvwm2  is inferior on this issue
is, we didn't take  the last step and  bind alt-tab by default.   (I'd
rather make this a post 2.2 change.)

> I'm just musing out-loud :).

I think you are referring to showing one entry  at a time, rather than
showing them all?  When I watch Windows users take 2 or 3 trips around
the list of windows, it makes  me laugh.  On  the other hand, it would
probably be a good  idea if alt-tab could  shuffle the list of windows
up by one, or cursor down, in the window list so  you wouldn't have to
move your fingers much.

> -- 
>  Paul D. Smith <[email-masked]>         Network Management Developmen

--
Dan Espen
444 Hoes Lane  Room RRC 1C-214           E-mail: [email-masked]
Piscataway, NJ 08854                     Phone: (732) 699-5570
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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:55:44 -0500 (EST)

> I'm just musing out-loud :).

I've already done that, but I did it as a module within tkgoodstuff
(it's called "switcher" and it works almost EXACTLY like the Windoze
Alt-TAB behavior).

I've gotten permission from Mark Crimmins to take over development of
tkGoodstuff, which is a scriptable tcl/tk "button bar" (on steroids!). 
I've been waiting for Fvwm 2.2 to be announced so that I can announce
the next version of tkGoodstuff (version 8.1).

This new version includes a new Switcher module puts up a centered
window with a group of mini-icons representing each running
application, with the window title on the next line.  By continually
pressing TAB (keeping the ALT key down), you can cycle through the
applications.  Letting go of the ALT key selects the highlighted window
(a focus and warp).  Pressing the ESCAPE key removes the window from
the screen.  This follows current Win95 and NT4 behavior.  As usual for
tkGoodstuff, the keys and modifiers can be specified by the user.

I've made a number of changes in tkGoodstuff, including REAL support
for Fvwm2's new mini-icons, some autoconf stuff, bug fixes, and various
other enhancements.  I'm just waiting for Fvwm 2.2 so I have a non-beta
Fvwm that I can specify for the program's requirements (it doesn't
really REQUIRE fvwm, but some features like the Switcher only work if
the program is invoked as an fvwm module).

Please do not take this as a message of "Hurry Up Guys" -- the time
that you spend fixing bugs and doing stuff to the 2.1.x tree is time
that I'm spending making tweaks to tkGoodstuff.

-- 
Larry Gensch					      [email-masked]

               "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

---

From: Michael Han <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:22:10 -0800

Previously...
>non-modifier keys (maybe you could pick a "normal" key instead of ALT)?

I'd looked into this... I had thought that for a tentative proof of
concept I could have the window list be displayed in FvwmIconMan.
Basically, I had an event loop waiting on Alt/Meta KeyPress which
would XGrabKey Tab or Shit+Tab. Then it'd wait ClickTime for
KeyRelease Tab. If it didn't, it would "Module FvwmIconMan transient"
and that's as far as I got. My prototype always dumped core, but I
suck at writing Xlib... Then I got distracted. Anyway, I *thought* my
theory was okay. And event looping on a KeyRelease seems workable.
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From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 22 Jan 1999 13:08:19 -0500

%% Dan Espen <[email-masked]> writes:

  >> (although for me, the fact that it operates regardless of which window

  de> It seems to me that the biggest way fvwm2 is inferior on this
  de> issue is, we didn't take the last step and bind alt-tab by
  de> default.  (I'd rather make this a post 2.2 change.)

Hmm.  I wouldn't say that's the biggest issue at all!  Maybe I'm
misreading the FAQ entry and what it gives you.

Using ALT-TAB to select the third window in Windows:

  * press ALT with thumb
  * press TAB 3 times with middle finger (that's what I use)
  * release ALT

Typically less than a second.

Using the FAQ method in FVWM:

  * press ALT-TAB
  * move hand to arrow keys, press down arrow twice
  * move hand to ENTER key, press ENTER

Significantly longer!  And it only gets worse the further down your
window is.

The advantage to the windows method is you're only using two keys
(really, only one since ALT is just held down) and one hand.  In FVWM
you're scootching your hand all over, or else using both.  Quite a bit
inferior, IMO.

  >> I'm just musing out-loud :).

  de> I think you are referring to showing one entry  at a time, rather than
  de> showing them all?  When I watch Windows users take 2 or 3 trips around
  de> the list of windows, it makes  me laugh.  On  the other hand, it would
  de> probably be a good  idea if alt-tab could  shuffle the list of windows
  de> up by one, or cursor down, in the window list so  you wouldn't have to

Not quite sure what you mean here.  I'm talking about selecting other
windows, as quickly and efficiently (fewest keystrokes/hand
motions/mouse motions/etc.) as possible.

Even taking an extra trip around the window list is, to me, faster or at
least simpler than moving my hand between various sets of keys like
that.  Besides, I've played so many video games in my life that I rarely
miss the first time, even going at full speed :)

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:31:05 -0500

> misreading the FAQ entry and what it gives you.

I'm not sure if you missed my point or not.  Just to be sure...

WinXX implements Alt Tab right out of the box.

We want a user to notice the missing behavior, figure out they have
to read the FAQ, decide which of 3 different choices are the correct one,
read the fvwm2 man page to find out which file to edit, figure out where
in the file the command belongs...

All because we didn't add a line or 2 to the fvwm2 startup logic.

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 22 Jan 1999 15:22:22 -0500

>> misreading the FAQ entry and what it gives you.

  de> I'm not sure if you missed my point or not.  Just to be sure...

  de> WinXX implements Alt Tab right out of the box.

  de> We want a user to notice the missing behavior, figure out they
  de> have to read the FAQ, decide which of 3 different choices are the
  de> correct one, read the fvwm2 man page to find out which file to
  de> edit, figure out where in the file the command belongs...

  de> All because we didn't add a line or 2 to the fvwm2 startup logic.

Yes, that's a bummer.

But I maintain the _larger_ bummer is that, no matter what obscure
contortions the user goes through, he/she cannot get the functionality
in the end anyway.

That's my point :).

---

From: Tim Phipps <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:37:33 +0000

> All because we didn't add a line or 2 to the fvwm2 startup logic.

I vote for:

Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c CurrentDesk NoGeometry
Key Tab A C WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort

to be added to the startup defaults. No need for a beta for this just
stick it in before 2.2.

Cheers,
Tim.

---

From: Tim Phipps <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:56:00 +0000

> Significantly longer!  And it only gets worse the further down your

You forgot about the hot keys (it's the last sentence in the paragraph
that describes the method above). To get the third window

Press Alt-tab
Press 2 (very close to Tab)

It gets better the further down your window is: 3 keys to get to any of
the first 36 windows.

You can get a 33% reduction in keypresses by binding KP_Enter or KP_Tab
to the windowlist command and using the keypad numbers to get to the hot
keys (you may need Num Lock on depending on your server). 2 keys to get
to the first ten, 4cm maximum spacing on my keyboard and right handed
too!  Obviously it's not Alt-tab but I don't think anyone could not
learn the new location.

> you're scootching your hand all over, or else using both.  Quite a bit

Problems I have with the windows style are:
1) You can't let go of ALT without something happening.
2) Going back is hard to type (I mean alt-shift-tab when your thumb is
on alt)
3) When you have more than one Nestcape page open you have to tab over
them to
   see which one is which.
4) It doesn't handle multiple desktops.
5) It doesn't indicate iconified windows.
6) No hot keys.

Nice things:
1) It handles modal transients nicely.

Cheers,
Tim.

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 25 Jan 1999 10:08:51 -0500

%% Tim Phipps <[email-masked]> writes:

  tp> You forgot about the hot keys (it's the last sentence in the paragraph
  tp> that describes the method above). To get the third window

  tp> Press Alt-tab
  tp> Press 2 (very close to Tab)

  tp> It gets better the further down your window is: 3 keys to get to
  tp> any of the first 36 windows.

True.  Maybe it's just me, but I find it much quicker to have TAB moving
the cursor and drawing my eye along until it hits the window I want,
than having to look down the list on my own, note the hotkey associated
with it, then find it on the keyboard and hit it.

I can tap that ALT key pretty durn fast :).

  tp> Problems I have with the windows style are:
  tp> 1) You can't let go of ALT without something happening.

Some kind of "never mind" key would be nice.  ESC seems like a good
choice, being right up there near TAB anyway.

  tp> 2) Going back is hard to type (I mean alt-shift-tab when your thumb is
  tp> on alt)

As Dan noted, I just circle around.  It's simpler.  Of course, on a
Winblows system I rarely have more than 6-8 apps running: maybe now that
I just got a new system I'll have more and be more frustrated by this.

However, I rarely miss ;).

  tp> 3) When you have more than one Nestcape page open you have to tab
  tp> over them to see which one is which.

_THIS_ does suck badly.

  tp> 4) It doesn't handle multiple desktops.
  tp> 5) It doesn't indicate iconified windows.
  tp> 6) No hot keys.

All true, but of lesser importance to me.

I'm not saying Windows ALT-TAB can't be improved on, I'm just saying
that at the moment what we have for fvwm isn't good enough (IMHO, of
course :).

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul D. Smith)
Date: 25 Jan 1999 10:10:09 -0500

Cool.  I'm glad someone took over tkgoodstuff.  I used it for a while
until the bugs just bugged me too much (and FvwmButtons got some
enhancements).

I'll have to give it a whirl again.