Subject: Proposal: new default config

From: Scott Smedley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:40:14 +1000

Hi all,

The default config for FVWM is (IMO) yuk!

I propose we update it to actually make it usable & also to make it a
little more aesthetically pleasing.

As an initial step, find attached a .fvwm2rc file. This syntax could
be added to ConfigFvwmDefaults (& SetRCDefaults() in fvwm.c potentially
updated as well).

A screenshot is available here:

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/scottie7/tmp/defaultLook.png

I would like to emphasise that the goal is NOT to have a whiz-bang,
super-dooper config showing off all FVWMs bells & whistles! (For that we
have custom .fvwm2rc files (hi Tavis! :) & fvwm-themes, etc.) The
default config should remain simple with a reasonable level of intuitive
functionality ... but it also shouldn't look like FVWM got stuck in the
90's! :)

All comments/suggestions/criticism most welcome.

SCoTT. :)

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:46:11 +0200

> The default config for FVWM is (IMO) yuk!

You obviously never took a look at sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc
;-)

> All comments/suggestions/criticism most welcome.

There are two big problems with improving the default config
(which is actually more an emergency fallback config with a
minimal set of options to allow the user to use the desktop at
all).

  1. It has to support black/white displays.  That rules out
     almost any attempt to make it visually more pleasing,
     especially any use of gradients (which may be a performance
     problem on very old machines too).

  2. I am highly reluctant to add new mouse or key bindings.  The
     man page documents these defaults and shows the exact
     commands that are necessary to remove them.  Many users rely
     of these commands and would not like if they had to change
     these settings once in a while.

As a compromise, we could add a root menu entry to switch between
the plain and a more fancy setup.  But then, wouldn't it be better
to integrate a minimal version of fvwm-themes into fvwm to get the
user going?

Ciao

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

 --
Dominik Vogt, [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

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From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:59:36 +0000

I actually wrote this before the Dominik's reply, but forgot to send. :)

> little more aesthetically pleasing.

I don't think the default configuration is so bad. It is intended to be
the fall back configuration and as such it is ok. It may be improved.
The default menu lists two non fall back setups to install.

I see some problems with your specific suggestion. The more bindings you
define (especially uncommon ones) the more users should undo in their
configs. This is one of the repeating questions even if we don't have
many built-in bindings right now.

The colors are sharp, they are not very pleasant for a long work, so I
see no real improvements in this area.

You use 3 titlebar buttons on the right without redefining their look.
It is very bad that a button looking like Maximize does Close.

I have no final opinion yet. But if you absolutelly want to have a new
default look and feel, then I suggest to borrow it from the default theme
of the current fvwm-themes cvs. This should not be much larger than the
config you posted. Here how it may look, compare with your screenshot:

  http://fvwm-themes.sf.net/tmp/fvwm-default.png

> MenuStyle * MenuFace DGradient 255 1 RoyalBlue 100 antiquewhite
> 
> TitleStyle Active HGradient 255 2 MidnightBlue 50 black 50 MidnightBlue
> TitleStyle InActive HGradient 255 2 RoyalBlue 50 black 50 RoyalBlue

If we do this (with more soft colors), then we will need to explain how
to disable these forced gradients in all documentation. This may easily
become FAQ 0.0 question. Also, I would encourage the colorset syntax here.

Regards,
Mikhael.
--
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---

From: Scott Smedley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:16:31 +1000

Hi Mikhael & Dominik, :)

Dominik says:

: > The default config for FVWM is (IMO) yuk!
: You obviously never took a look at sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc

Perhaps my definition of "default config" is wrong. To me, this is
an example .fvwm2rc file that users have to explicitly copy to
~/.fvwm/config or wherever. (Incidentally, this file does not appear
to be installed with "make install".)

I was more interested in the look & usability of FVWM when no
~/.fvwm2rc, ~/.fvwm/config, etc file is found.

: 1. It has to support black/white displays.

Surely we can get around this with PipeRead & xdpyinfo, or (even better)
FVWM probably knows when it's running on a monochrome display.

: 2. I am highly reluctant to add new mouse or key bindings.

see next point.

Mikhael says:

: I see some problems with your specific suggestion. The more bindings you
: define (especially uncommon ones) the more users should undo in their
: configs.

What if we made FVWM "Read" a default config file iff no config file is
found in the usual places? Maybe we should make it read system.fvwm2rc?

: The colors are sharp, they are not very pleasant for a long work, so I
: see no real improvements in this area.

I'm not married to any of the aesthetics - just anything other than
grey & black! :)

: You use 3 titlebar buttons on the right without redefining their look.
: It is very bad that a button looking like Maximize does Close.

Good point.

: I have no final opinion yet. But if you absolutelly want to have a new
: default look and feel, then I suggest to borrow it from the default theme
: of the current fvwm-themes cvs.

Ah! Good idea!

I guess I'm trying to guard against this situation:

Newbie tries FVWM for the first time. Starts it up. "YUK!". (never
uses FVWM again)

Maybe it doesn't happen as much as I think it does.

Still, my hypothetical newbie gets a vastly different experience when
trying fvwm-themes, KDE, Gnome, etc for the first time.

SCoTT. :)

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:10:03 -0400

> Maybe it doesn't happen as much as I think it does.

If you start fvwm without a config, you should end up finding the menu
that lets you choose a starting config.  Right now, that will lead you to the
Setup Form of the Setup Script.  From there you make choices about
the setup you want.

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]

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From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:23:56 -0400

> Setup Form of the Setup Script.  From there you make choices about
             ^^ or