Subject: Logo-Competition planning thread

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:17:27 +0100

This thread is meant to contain all discussions about the planned
logo competition.  Please keep unrelated topics out of this
thread.  To begin with, you can find my first draft of the logo
competition rules below.  When you replay, please quote only the
sections you are referring to.  The current draft can always be
found in CVS.

At this time, input is specifically asked for about the format
and size of the contributions and on how to maintain a web page
with submitted logos.

----

	Fvwm Logo Competition Rules
	---------------------------

*** DRAFT ***

!!!
(give a short explanation what fvwm is and why it needs a new
logo)

1. Competition Schedule

* The logo competition begins on 15th of April, 2003.
* Contributions can be made up to and including the 31st of July.
* From the 3rd of August to the 30th of August, the winning logo
  will be elected by the fvwm users on the fvwm mailing list.
* The winner will be proclaimed on the 31st of August.

2. Logos

* Logos can be submitted in either XPM or PNG format.  All other
  formats, including .jpg and .gif are not accepted.
* The acceptable size of the logos is about between 240x150 pixels
  to 360x240 pixels.
* No more than 256 colours may be used.
* Transparency should be used to shape the image.
* As the winning logo is used as a banner, it should have a good
  contrast to any background.
* The submitted logos will be used at full size, scaled down to
  half size, and to a height of 16 pixels.
* The submitted logos will be converted to use no more than 16
  colours when packed into the fvwm distribution and should still
  look good.
* A version using only black and white will also be part of the
  distribution, so it must be possible to still recognize the logo
  with only two colours.
* The name "fvwm" must appear in the logo, without a version
  number (i.e. *not* as "fvwm2").

3. Contributing

* Everybody may participate in the competition with any number of
  contributions.
* Logos can be submitted by
  A. Posting the URL of the logo to [email-masked].
  B. Uploading the logo to ftp://ftp.fvwm.org/pub/incoming/fvwm/
     and sending a mail to inform the [email-masked] list of the
     upload.
  C. Sending the logo as an *aggressively compressed* attachment,
     no larger than 20kB to [email-masked].  Due to the possible
     number of contributions, larger files are *not* acceptable.
* For our convenience, please use the subject "[logo]" when you
  send a mail to [email-masked].
* The contributed logos will be exhibited on the logo web page:
  http://!!!
  in the three sizes mentioned above, with full colour and with 16
  colours.
* Logos with illegal, discriminating or otherwise offensive
  contents, at the discretion of the fvwm developers, will not be
  accepted.

4. Copyrights and License

* The artist retains full copyright of his or her work.
* By submitting a logo to the competition, the artist accepts that
  the logo is converted into XPM format (if necessary) and
  distributed under the terms of the Gnu General Public License
  (GPL).  !!!Link to GPL.

5. Voting Rules

* In the election phase, votes are sent to [email-masked].
* Everybody may vote only only once.
* You can give one or no votes for any number of logos. The voting
  email should contain a list of logos for which you vote.  Give a
  vote for each logo you would enjoy to see as the official fvwm
  logo.
* The logo with the most votes wins.
* The above voting mode is meant to determine the logo that is
  accepted by the broadest range of users and not disliked strogly
  by a large fraction of fvwm users.
* Although everybody may count the votes sent to the fvwm-workers
  mailing list, the current standings of the election will only be
  published when the polls are closed.

6. The winner

* The winning logo will be shipped with the fvwm distribution
  (hopefully in 2.6.0) and used as:

  - A startup banner with the FvwmBanner module at full size.
  - As a banner on the fvwm web site at full or half size.
  - At tiny size, rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise as a menu
    side bar.

!!!prize?

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

 --
Dominik Vogt, [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
--
Visit the official FVWM web page at <URL:http://www.fvwm.org/>.
To unsubscribe from the list, send "unsubscribe fvwm-workers" in the
body of a message to [email-masked].
To report problems, send mail to [email-masked]

---

From: parv <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:17:48 -0500

in message <[email-masked]>,
wrote [email-masked] thusly...
...
>   (hopefully in 2.6.0) and used as:
...
> !!!prize?

Prize?  What prize?  Isn't the logo being part of FVMW a prize in
itself?

(Rhetorical question people; if you must reply, keep that in mind.)

  - parv

--

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:08:56 +0100

> and size of the contributions and on how to maintain a web page

Come on, folks.  Nobody who can at least proof read the rules?

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:17:45 +0000

> 	Fvwm Logo Competition Rules

I am not sure why we need 4 weeks here, one week would be enough.

> * The acceptable size of the logos is about between 240x150 pixels

I think the participians should be encouraged to create large qualitative
logos, like 600x400 that could be scalled down to any needed size.

I would drop this requirement, see also below.

> * No more than 256 colours may be used.

I don't see any difference between 256 and several thousands of colors.
Both can't be easily used on 8bpp. It is better to have more colors if
we want to scale down images.

I would drop this requirement.

>   contrast to any background.

I am not sure "a good contrast" is the best wording. I would use
"looks good on any background, preferably achieved by an alpha-blended
PNG image".

>   half size, and to a height of 16 pixels.

"The submitted logos will be used at 3 sizes.
1) The size suitable for FvwmBanner.
2) The medium size (like 150x100).
3) Small size (the width is 16).

The participant is requered to submit only one large qualitative logo.
The 3 sizes mentioned here are optional for submission."

>   colours when packed into the fvwm distribution and should still

We now have in 2.5.x a good automatical color redution algorithms, so
this is requirement is not needed. I would either make it optional or
drop it.

>   distribution, so it must be possible to still recognize the logo

I am not sure where 1bit images could be useful.
May be optional.

>      and sending a mail to inform the [email-masked] list of the

This is not practical, incoming/ is not downloadable.

> * The contributed logos will be exhibited on the logo web page:

http://fvwm.org/logo-contest/candidates/<author>-logo.png

>   in the three sizes mentioned above, with full colour and with 16

I see 5 variants here, not 3.

  <author>-logo.png     # may be at any size with any number of colors
  <author>-banner.png   # about 300x200, suitable for FvwmBanner
  <author>-medium.png   # about 150x100, also any number of colors
  <author>-narrow.png   # about 150x20 (if this makes sence)
  <author>-bw.png       # about 300x200, black-white

The author may provide either one image (the first one) or all 5 or less.
I would not make "narrow" and "bw" mandatory, but something that may
improve the rating.

>   - At tiny size, rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise as a menu

May be also used as a wallpaper after some additional work.

> !!!prize?

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:32:28 +0100

> I would drop this requirement, see also below.

Okay, I agree.

> we want to scale down images.

True enough.

> I would drop this requirement.

I would instead *demand* that no more than 16 colours are used.
See below.

> "looks good on any background,

Okay.

> preferably achieved by an alpha-blended PNG image".

PNGs with alpha blending are inacceptable.  Only xpm and xbm
images with no more than 16 colours will be included in the
distribution.  (Because of the size and the library requirements).

> The 3 sizes mentioned here are optional for submission."

Okay.  But it must be stated that the large logo will *not* be
published.  It will only be used to create the logos in the three
target sizes and depths and must look good in this format.

> this is requirement is not needed. I would either make it optional or

Colour reduction is nice, but the logos are too large in xpm
format with many colours.

> I am not sure where 1bit images could be useful.

On b/w displays.

> This is not practical, incoming/ is not downloadable.

No, it isn't.  Jason would have to move them to some place where
we can edit them and put them on the contributions page.

>   <author>-bw.png       # about 300x200, black-white

I see four:

  - XPM banner (about 300x200, 16 colours) 
  - XBM banner (about 300x200, 2 colours)
  - Sidebar    (about 16x24, full colour, rotated 90 degrees)
  - Web site   (about 150x100, full colour, jpg or png)

> I would not make "narrow" and "bw" mandatory, but something that may

The author can submit any or all of these.  If any formats are
missing, a large, high quality version must be submitted from
which the smaller versions are generated.  Submitting the smaller
versions is optional in case scaling them down automatically does
not give good results.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:35:51 +0000

> I would instead *demand* that no more than 16 colours are used.

16 colors for FvwmBanner? May work and may not depending on the image.
I think we should not mix FvwmBanner problems here. It is not hard to
add a code to FvwmBanner to use different images for 1bpp, 8bpp and
24bpp.

If we speak about our logo globally and not about FvwmBanner, I don't see
adding any color limitation as a good thing increasing a number of
participants.

> distribution.  (Because of the size and the library requirements).

I don't think distributing PNG together with XPM is a bad thing.
We may convert PNG with alpha blending to transparent XPM (try gimp)
or ask the winner later (if he uses such PNG) to create XPM for us.

I don't know whether anyone will actually use alpha blending, but it
would be really great, such images may be applied to any background very
smoothly.

> target sizes and depths and must look good in this format.

I think it should be something like: "the large logo may or may not be
published/distributed by the decision of developers, it may be used to
create other suitable images".

> format with many colours.

We may distribute .xpm.gz, I think it is supported by most modern (all?)
xpm libraries.

> we can edit them and put them on the contributions page.

I think it will be more practical to just give the email address of one
or more developers who can place the received images into cvs in a short
time. Dan did it well with screenshots. Or Dominik, Mikhael.

>   - Web site   (about 150x100, full colour, jpg or png)

I think we should publish the whole image during the voting process and
then decide what to do with it. It can't be decided now which sizes
exactly will be used, it all depends on the image content and style.

BTW, 16x24 is the size of your titlebar button, I don't think this would
be usable as a menu side image.

For me it is better to receive more submissions than less (we did not
receive many on the previous contest), this is why I don't like strong
color and size restrictions. I would add a restriction for logos to be
nice. :)

> versions is optional in case scaling them down automatically does

Ok.

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:47:17 -0500

> > > > 	Fvwm Logo Competition Rules

Judging by the last time we tried this, I think we'll be lucky to
get any good submissions.

I don't think a lot of rules are going to help.

We can color reduce and resize good images ourselves.

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:17:07 +0100

Okay, here is a dramatically stripped down version of the rules
with most of the nitpicking removed.  On the issue how to
contribute:  we could simply register a free mail account
somewhere and share the password.  This way any of the
developers can do the work.

--------------------------- snip --------------------------------

	The fvwm Logo Competition
	-------------------------

*** DRAFT ***

(!!!give a short explanation what fvwm is and why it needs a new
logo)

Competition Schedule
--------------------

  15-Apr/10-Aug
    Logo contributions are accepted.

  15-Aug/30-Aug
    The winning logo is elected.

  31-Aug
    The winning logo is proclaimed.

How your logo should look like
------------------------------

* We want to use your logo in different formats.  The actual size
  will depend on the logo.
   - On the fvwm web site (about 200x120, full colour)
   - As a banner for fvwm startup (about 300x180, 256 colours)
   - As a banner with only black and white (about 300x180)
   - Running up the left side of a menu (about 24x48, 16 colours)

* You do not need to make all these different images yourself.
  Just draw a big image with all the colours you like and we will
  take care of the smaller versions.  Of course you may do that
  yourself too - your choice.

* What you should keep in mind is that the banners will be
  converted to XPM format and put in the distribution.  They
  should look good on any background and not occupy more than 25kB
  after compression.

* Logos can be submitted in either XPM or PNG format.

Contributing your logo
----------------------

* Everybody may submit any number of logos by sending it as a
  *compressed* email attachment to !!!<email address>.

* The contributed logos are exhibited at
  http://fvwm.org/logo-competition

* Logos not created by the submitter or logos with illegal,
  discriminating or otherwise offensive contents, at the
  discretion of the fvwm developers, can not be accepted.

Copyrights and License
----------------------

* By submitting a logo to the competition, the artist accepts that
  the logo is converted into XPM format (if necessary) and
  distributed under the terms of the Gnu General Public License.

There can be only one
---------------------

* In the election phase, one voting email per person can be sent to
  [email-masked].

* You can give one or no votes for each logo. The email should
  contain a list of logos for which you vote.  Give a vote for
  each logo you would enjoy to see as the official fvwm logo.

Gimme the Prize
---------------

* The prize for the new official fvwm logo is 100 Euro or the same
  amount in any other currency.

--------------------------- snip --------------------------------

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 03:35:45 +0000

> developers can do the work.

Ok, I have created a mini mailing list for this pure administrative work:
[email-masked]. I have subscribed Dominik and Dan, but anyone may
be subscribed/unsubscribed as well if he wants so (you don't need to do
this, everything will be on the web) at:
  http://lists.sf.net/lists/listinfo/fvwm-logo

Votes could be sent to this same address too, so we don't litter
fvwm-workers with dozens of unrelated messages.

>   *compressed* email attachment to !!!<email address>.

"Everybody may submit any number of logos by posting an url to the art
work or sending it as an email attachment (preferably compressed) to
[email-masked] address."

>   discretion of the fvwm developers, can not be accepted.

Well, the logos from the previous competition *may* be submitted by
not an author, because they already contain all needed permissions.
No prize in this case. No need to document this specially too.

> * In the election phase, one voting email per person can be sent to

[email-masked].

>   each logo you would enjoy to see as the official fvwm logo.

Hmm. If it is possible to vote for every logo, I prefer it to be a rating
of 5 not 2, "horrible/bad/neutral/good/wonderful". It may be done using a
web form showing 5 choices near every logo together with a button for
sending votes by email. I may do it after we have the logos submitted.

I think we should allow voting from the web.

>From your pocket? I can't agree. The prize will be a logo of 100 Euro.

  http://images.google.com/images?q=100-euro&num=20

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:47:46 +0100

> [email-masked] address."

There was a specific reason why I did not want pictures on a
mailing list:  my ISDN line at home.  I don't want to download
MBs of images there.  But with the new mailing list I can set a
filter that blocks the list mail on my home address once the
competition started.

> No prize in this case. No need to document this specially too.

Do you still have them?

> > * In the election phase, one voting email per person can be sent to

You can make such changes directly in CVS.  I don't need to say
yes to everything.

> sending votes by email. I may do it after we have the logos submitted.

I read a bit of theory on voting and elections.  The big advantage
of this mode is that if you strongly dislike one choice, the best
thing you can do is not to vote for it.  You can not further
reduce its changes by voting for something else.

> I think we should allow voting from the web.

Yes.  But I fear this will encourage people to vote multiple
times.  Perhaps an email form?

> >From your pocket?

Yes.

> I can't agree. The prize will be a logo of 100 Euro.
> 

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:42:35 +0100

With no discussion going on anymore, do we all agree on the
competition rules draft in cvs?  What about the schedule?

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:42:12 +0000

> competition rules draft in cvs?  What about the schedule?

I would not add a Prize section. Although it may be no problem for
someone to take out of a pocket 100 euro (I don't know), this could be
incorrectly thought as we are a commercial organization. The prize is a
honor and a mention on the web and in the sources.

As for the schedule I would like to have a new logo (or at least most of
the candidate logos) till June 1, so we may use some of them for the front
page. We may then extend the last submission date after this if there are
no enough submissions.

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:18:31 +0100

> honor and a mention on the web and in the sources.

It is meant as an encouragement to take part in the competition
and thus increase the number of submitted logos.

> page. We may then extend the last submission date after this if there are

If we extend the submission period later, this will only confuse
people and force us to post another announcement.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^