Subject: web site design thread

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:46:20 +0100

Let us discuss further web design discussions here.  Below is a
summary on what was said up to now.  When you reply, please do not
quote the whole email but only the parts you are referring to.
Please keep topics not related to the web site design out of this
thread and post design related emails only here.

----

  Goal: Make a shiny new site for the celebration and keep the
        news up to date.
  Priority: high
  Responsible: volunteer needed, parv, Uwe
  Status: planning schedule           
                           
  10-Apr                   
   * Write a short announcement message for the 1st of June and
     discuss it on fvwm-workers (for the web site).
                   
  15-Apr      
   * Put the announcement on the web page.
   * Put the announcement for the logo competition on the web
     site.
   * Make a web page for the logo competition.

  25-May
   * Make a shiny web site for the celebration and post it on
     fvwm-workers.
   * Make a web page with the pictures of the developers.

  30-May
   * Upload the celebration page.

  30-Jun
   * Remove the celebration page or keep the page but remove
     references to the birthday event.

----

parv>  Q: Do you mean wholly new web site, or will a separate
       directory for the occasion (either on fvwm.org or under my
       own personal space somewhere) be enough?

dominik> A:  A wholly new site that is kept in separate
         directories until the birthday.

dominik> Sparse decorations are no problem.  The result should
         look more professional than what we have now, and more
         eye friendly.  It must be easy to read and the backgound
         must give a good contrast to the text.  And, of course,
         it should not insult anybody's aesthetic feeling (green
         text on red background, or a pink title on grey
         background as we have now).

dominik> I would like to keep the new design after the birthday.
         For the birthday it should be a bit mor colourful (with
         confetti and such ;-) ), but after that the more plain
         style is better.

parv> > * Remove the celebration page or keep the page but remove
      >   references to the birthday event.
      Q:  I think this item would be responsibility of whomever
      ends up designing/owning the related pages, right?

dominik> A:  Yes, it's not interesting now.  We can think about it
         later.

Uwe> Q:  According to your other mail you are quite open regarding
     to light/dark foreground/background. Or do you have any
     preferences?

dominik> A:  No.

Uwe> Q:  How about loading times? Do you want to keep the web page
     as small as possible? One could do two versions of the
     layout. One which is simple and small, and one which is more
     shiny with a lot of pictures but may take a time to load it
     with a modem. The user could choose which version he
     wants. Using the php-scripts I mentioned this quite easy to
     set up.

dominik> A:  I don't know.  The only requirements I have are
        
           a) It must be easy on the eye and easy to read.
           b) It must not annoy anybody (e.g. with strange or too
              bright colours, bad text/background contrast, small
              font sizes, requiring large browser windows, etc.)

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---

From: Andre Bonhote <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:07:26 +0100

Hi Dominik!

>   Goal: Make a shiny new site for the celebration and keep the

Ahm, what is "shiny" in your eyes? Do you have examples on how it could
look like?

IMHO all a good site needs is an easy navigation. More than two clicks
to get what you want is too much. If you ask me: I like the current
fvwm.org page somehow. It looks so ... settled :) No, not shiny.

CU

André
-- 
Never laugh at live dragons.
                -- Bilbo Baggins [J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Hobbit"]
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---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:19:35 +0100

> Ahm, what is "shiny" in your eyes? Do you have examples on how it could

No, and I'd rather stay out of this because I have no web design
skills at all.  But we definitely need something more fancy for
the birthday.

> fvwm.org page somehow. It looks so ... settled :) No, not shiny.

I don't think the current site is too bad.  But it has some *very*
ugly colour combinations like the pink titles on gray background.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Andre Bonhote <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:21:26 +0100

> skills at all.  But we definitely need something more fancy for

Umh, maybe you're right about the webdesign skills, but still, you will
have sites you like and sites you dislike. Interesting would be a number
of sites you like, as you're one of the main developers here.
 
> ugly colour combinations like the pink titles on gray background.

Dominik, be honest: Does the default configuration fvwm2 comes with look
beautiful in your opinion? I mean, if you have a nice and shiny website,
you should maybe think about using another default config for future
releases.

I know, this is OT, but it just came to my mind. Would it be possible to
have the website look like fvwm2? Or/and have fvwm2 by default look like
the website? This is maybe crazy, but, yeah! why not?

Just an idea. I really do _not_ like the default look of fvwm2. I could
imagine that a new user would be quite shocked ... (sorry to the creator
of that "theme", but it's my taste).

CU
A.

-- 
Steinbach's Guideline for Systems Programming:
        Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle.
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---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:03:21 +0100

> you should maybe think about using another default config for future

That's what I have said for years.  The default config makes new
users run off screaming in panic.  But let's move this topic out
of this thread.

> the website? This is maybe crazy, but, yeah! why not?

I had the same idea.  A web page surrounded by a themable window
border, with the menu in the title bar :-)  Would be fitting for a
window manager.  Or perhaps with a pager to navigate the sub
pages?

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:36:27 +0100

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Andre Bonhote wrote:

> I know, this is OT, but it just came to my mind. Would it
> be possible to have the website look like fvwm2?

Actually I have thought of this already. Making a web
design which uses parts of fvwm screenshots should not been
that difficult ;-)

> Or/and have fvwm2 by default look like

Uwe
-- 
Uwe Pross
mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:57:48 -0500

> ugly colour combinations like the pink titles on gray background.

The background should appear more black than gray.
Perhaps the contrast setting on your monitor is low.

I prefer the stone look to plain black, just to add some
interest, but I have seen the background appear a pretty light
gray on some monitors.  It doesn't look that way on mine.

Does cyan look better than pink?
Both look good to me, but the cyan looks a little better.
I'll change it if you like it better.

I think the background has to be either black or white.
To be readable against a range of colors these are the only 2
colors that have a chance of working.

I really prefer the dark background since I don't like shining
a bright light into my eyes.

Does anyone have small public domain images of birthday decorations
that could be used as a page frame?

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:50:52 +0100

> gray on some monitors.  It doesn't look that way on mine.

Since I play some computer games that are very dark, I have set
contrast and brightness to the maximum.  I'm not against a
slightly grained background, but as it is it looks like its
nibbling on the text.  The body of the pages looks very cleanis,
but I dislike the page titles (colours and fonts) and specifically
the old fvwm logo - it makes me scream everytime I look at it.
It's simply amateurish.

As much as I dislike frames, the frame-less site we have looks
somewhat like the content is leaking out of the pages.  The text
lines are too long on some pages.

I really like the idea to give the site a 'window' layout with a
title bar and a border (perhaps only on the top and the left):

 +------------------------------------------+ <- screen
 |+----------------------------------------+|
 || News | CVS | <FVWM HOME PAGE> | Themes || <- titlebar with
 |+----------------------------------------+|    - left buttons
 ||                                         |    - right buttons
 || General description                     |    - page title
 ||                                         |
 |+---------------------------------------- |
 ||                                         |
 || Latest News                             |
 ||                                         |
 |+---------------------------------------- |
 ||                                         |
 || Rest of page                            |
 ||                                         |

                   ...

 ||                                         |
 ||                                         |
 +------------------------------------------+

Uwe has a button on his site to switch the page theme.  Wouldn't
this make a great interactive show-off of some fvwm features?
There would be a button to cycle through the available themes with
a link to download the theme config to put in your .fvwm2rc :-)

> I'll change it if you like it better.

I don't think it's a matter of colour.  
 
> colors that have a chance of working.

Plus some very dark blue, cyan and gray tones and light grays,
close to white.  The contrast between pure black and white is too
extreme.

> a bright light into my eyes.

Me too.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:18:16 +0100

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Dominik Vogt wrote:

> Wouldn't this make a great interactive show-off of some
> fvwm features? There would be a button to cycle through
> the available themes with a link to download the theme
> config to put in your .fvwm2rc :-)

This is great idea. 

To get an idea I replaced the corner pictures from my web
site against some in fvwm style:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm.php?layout=layout_fvwm_demo

The pictures were taken from the fvwm-theme homepage. The
navigation menu on the left site could be drawn with
pictures from a fvwm menu - but this takes a little bit
more time to set up.

Uwe

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:32:23 +0100

> http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm.php?layout=layout_fvwm_demo

:-D

With some effort

> pictures from a fvwm menu - but this takes a little bit

Let's work out the window frame idea first.  Perhaps the pager
would make an excellent new type of menu, giving a graphical
representation of the web site layout :-)

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:46:22 -0500

Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]> writes:
> contrast and brightness to the maximum.

Try Kobo Deluxe.  Its not dark, and its the only game you'll
ever play.  (Well maybe not.)

> I'm not against a
> nibbling on the text.

Probaby due to your settings.  The texture is supposed to be
subtle.

> The body of the pages looks very cleanis,
> but I dislike the page titles (colours and fonts)

The fonts are your default fonts.  We don't set any fonts.

> and specifically

I used the old logo because it was the default banner in FvwmBanner.
I never switched to the new banner because I think it looks really
bad in comparison.

I'd like to resolve both issues.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:38:45 +0100

> ever play.  (Well maybe not.)

Ever played Thief? :-)

> Probaby due to your settings.  The texture is supposed to be

I asked a colleague and he did not even notice the background was
not pure black from a distance of about 1.5 metres.  Maybe my eyes
are especially sensitive to dim colours.  I thought the background
was too bright right from the start.

> The fonts are your default fonts.  We don't set any fonts.

Mozilla default fonts, then.  THe Serifs are too pronounced for my
liking.  But setting our own fonts is probably not worth the
trouble.

> I never switched to the new banner because I think it looks really

I guess we don't need to know exactly which of the two looks worse.
The reasoning for the current FvwmBanner logo was "everything is
better than the old one".  That does not imply much quality in the
new one. ;-)

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

 --
Dominik Vogt, [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
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---

From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:56:42 -0500

> liking.  But setting our own fonts is probably not worth the

Setting our own fonts would be a major mistake, (in my opinion).
The choice should be on the client side.

I never saw any point to Serifs.  Theoretically, they increase
readability, but I don't get it.

In mozilla, its easy to pick:

edit->preferences->appearance->fonts->proportional->sans serif

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:59:03 +0100

Hi there,

I have put a first version under development of the fvwm
homepage on my webspace:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/

This version is uncompleted. Currently there is only one
page available. I put it online to show what I am going to
do. I plan to add a pager in the top left corner and either
a fvwm menu or an icon manager containing sub links below
it. I think about putting a TaskBar on top of the page
which shows the location of the actual site relative to the
fvwm home page like

+----------------------------------------------------------
| fvwm home -> documentations -> man pages -> FvwmButtons
+----------------------------------------------------------

I rewrote my php-scripts that all links are kept relative
now. It is so possible to generate the whole html-tree and
put it on the fvwm-server without any modifications
(hopefully). This needs only to be done if your web server
does not support php - What I don't know yet.

I implemented a couple of functions which insert the window
decorations as seen on the demo site. They can be used in
each fvwm-page and will depend on the actual style e.g.:

<?php decoration_top_line("Fvwm Home Page"); ?>

will insert a table line containing a window decoration
which has "Fvwm Home Page" in title.

Maybe we need to discuss the structure of the web tree. My
first suggestion is:

Home (This site)
|
+- News (As it is now)
|
+- Features 
|
+- Download 
|   | 
|   +- Fvwm Packages
|   +- fvwmrcs
|   +- vectorbuttons
|   +- icons 
|   +- sounds
|
+- Screenshots
|   | 
|   +- Window decorations
|   +- menus
|   +- desktops
|
+- Documentations
|   |
|   +- man pages
|   |   |
|   |   +- fvwm 
        +- ....
|   +- may be other docs faqs (cvs)
|
+- Contact (Mailing list addresses)
|
+- Links
| 
+- (Other infos ?)

Authors? Maybe from Home

Any suggestions are welcome :-)

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 12:15:33 +0100

> http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/

Nice.  It gives a good idea of how it could look like.  Just to
have something to compare it to:  could you make another
version that draw the window title and the left border around the
whole page?  (I.e. "page looks like a desktop" vs. "page looks
like a window".).  I think I slightly prefer the "window" layout
since it would look more structured, but it's hard to say without
seeing it first.

> do.

It's fine to start with.  We have to keep in mind that we need a
nice design for the *front page* on 1st of June.  Everything else
can wait a little bit longer.  Don't spend a lot of time on the
other pager before we have agreed on the basic looks.

> I plan to add a pager in the top left corner and either
> it.

> I think about putting a TaskBar on top of the page

Argh!  No way!  No taskbars on fvwm web pages!  Yuck!  :-)

Looks good, but don't nest it unnecessarily.  For example, there
is no need to sort everything remotely related to documentation
under "Documentation".  We can as well keep the old two sections,
one with developer info and one with man pages.  I suggest about
ten to fifteen links/buttons on the front page.  This is not too
much for the eye and gives a good granulatiry.  With more buttons
it becomes confusiong (see
http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/ for an example) and with
too few you have to click too often.  Oh, by the way, keyboard
navigation (tab) on the page is mandatory.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:34:27 +0100

Hi there,

On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Dominik Vogt wrote:

> Nice.  It gives a good idea of how it could look like. 
> Just to have something to compare it to: could you make
> another version that draw the window title and the left
> border around the whole page?  (I.e. "page looks like a
> desktop" vs. "page looks like a window".).  I think I
> slightly prefer the "window" layout since it would look
> more structured, but it's hard to say without seeing it
> first.

Like 
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/index.php?layout=window
?

> It's fine to start with.  We have to keep in mind that we
> need a nice design for the *front page* on 1st of June. 
> Everything else can wait a little bit longer.  Don't
> spend a lot of time on the other pager before we have
> agreed on the basic looks.

That's ok. The hardest part will be to find the right
layout ;-) Pages are only derived from this layout file.

> Argh!  No way!  No taskbars on fvwm web pages!  Yuck!  :-)

;-)
I thought making the web like a screenshot. For example:
http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/spruce.gif
(My idea was to show as much fvwm features as possible and
use them in the web design way:)

> Looks good, but don't nest it unnecessarily.  For
> example, there is no need to sort everything remotely
> related to documentation under "Documentation".  We can
> as well keep the old two sections, one with developer
> info and one with man pages.  I suggest about ten to
> fifteen links/buttons on the front page.  

This might be to much for the Icon-Style-Buttons I used now.
Especially if you view the page on small desktops. i.e. 800x600:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/index.php?layout=16buttons

I have planed to put a "quick" navigation on each page, so
that you don't have to use the back button of your browser.
This quick navigation with Icons should contain at most 8
links.  Or we may use another style to present the links
i.e. FvwmIconManager. On the top/start page it might be
useful to provide additional some "direct links".

> This is not too much for the eye and gives a good
> granulatiry.  With more buttons it becomes confusiong
> (see http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/ for an
> example) and with too few you have to click too often. 

There too much links on this navigation ;-)

> Oh, by the way, keyboard navigation (tab) on the page is
> mandatory.

This should depend on your browser. With mozilla you can
switch to the links with tab. I have not tried other
browsers yet. (I can do that at home.)

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:26:56 +0100

> http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/index.php?layout=window

Almost.  Can you remove the bottom and right border of the outer
frame too?

> use them in the web design way:)

Yes, I got that :-)  BUt we should keep in mind that the page must
still be easy to navigate.  We must not drown the surfer in
graphical gimmicks that make it hard to find the information she
is looking for.

> http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/index.php?layout=16buttons

Yes, that's too confusing.  But that is a specific problems of the
"desktop icons menu" style.  In the end we should probably have
some structure with the links in one, maybe two vertical columns.
Everything else is too difficult to read (so forget my idea of
putting the menu items in the title bar).

How about a WindowList like layout:

  +-------------------+
  |[i] Home           |
  |[i] Download       |
  |[i] Developer Info |
  |[i] Man Pages      |
  |[i] Screen shots   |
           ...
  |                   |
  +-------------------+

The [i]s are some mini icons, but it's probably easier to read
without them.

And one suggestion about the site layout:  Screen shots and
configs should be in the same place so you can say "I want the
config for this shot".

> browsers yet. (I can do that at home.)

No need to check all browsers.  I just wanted to mention that the
pages must allow it (not like Shockwave flash menus, etc.).

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:14:24 +0100

> Almost.  Can you remove the bottom and right border of the outer

With difficulties. I use a simple shell script to generate
the decoration pictures from a window screenshot or
another picture. To see how it works look at:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/index.php?layout=window&border=1 

The script cuts 9 pieces out of a pictures which can be
remerged in a html-table to make the original picture scalable. 

+---------------+     +--+--+--+
|               | =>  +--+--+--+
|               |     +--+--+--+
+---------------+     +--+--+--+

So I have to remove the bottom and right border by hand.

> graphical gimmicks that make it hard to find the information she

In my opinion a web site must be designed to provide access
to the information one needs as easy as possible. So the
first requirement is easy and obvious navigation the second
would be a fancy layout to bind the surfer ;-) 

I will do some examples. Due the php-concept it is quite
easy to add and remove parts of a web page. Once you have
set them up you can insert them in a page and remove them
from it within seconds ;-)

> How about a WindowList like layout:

Yes. Good idea. I could do an example hopefully by the end
of this week.

> configs should be in the same place so you can say "I want the

Yes, that's what I have in mind too. I was also thinking
about modular configs which can be included by Read in
.fvwm2rc. One could provide config-parts for window
decorations, menu styles, module configs and so on. I have
set this up at my home computer but not that consequently.
It makes changing parts of the fvwm-config quite easy and
portable.

> pages must allow it (not like Shockwave flash menus, etc.).

I have to check the pages which different browsers anyway.
Every browser displays pages slightly differently.  Most of
them do not support the whole w3c standard :-(

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:56:14 +0100

> would be a fancy layout to bind the surfer ;-) 

Agreed.  Perhaps we fvwm developers seem to define "fancy" less
colourful that others.  A good layout should make it easy to
choose between more fancy and less fancy.

> decorations, menu styles, module configs and so on.

In the best of all possible worlds, it would be possible to
generate the theme automatically from fvwm-themes, including the
config snippets :-)

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: David Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:39:38 +0100

> browsers yet. (I can do that at home.)

Please don't forget the other browsers, i prefer using dillo or
w3m and hate it to start mozilla when a site is unreadable. 

Apart from that you design look very nice (on mozilla ;).

David

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:23:23 +0100

> w3m and hate it to start mozilla when a site is unreadable. 

This is a big problem. I have played around this morning
with amaya and dillo. Both do not support style-sheets as
they where defined. This makes it nearly impossible to
describe the page as I did it and have them displayed
properly in those browsers. 

There several ways to cope with this. 

One could make different versions for different browsers.
This is possible only if the web server supports php (or
another pre-processor language). Using php and a modular
concept this is less work than is sounds. Many professional
pages do that.

One could find a set of (html)-statements which are fully
supported by all browsers. 

One could use _fixed_ images for decorations. As I said
before I used 9 generated images to produce the window
layout. This highly depends one the use of style sheets
since the images are small and must been repeated by the
browser to draw the whole border. If this is not supported
by the browser one could use 4 simpler images together with
a background color:

+------------------+
+------------------+
| |              | | 
| |              | | 
| |              | | 
| |              | | 
+------------------+
+------------------+

In that case the size of the window remains fixed. And the
page will look ugly when the user uses font size or a
screen resolution which is far away from that for the page
was designed to. You can see this quite often. Most times
it is said "This page was designed for a screen resolution
of 1024x768". I would not like to do that.

One could design the page that it looks good in browser
which support the standards and look less fancy in other
browsers. One need to ensure in that case that the
information on the pages is accessable by the other browsers
as well. This can be done by choosing the right background
colors which will be displayed by the non-standard
browsers. Standard browser will overlay the colors by a
background image. 

Regards, Uwe

---

From: David Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:10:34 +0100

> There several ways to cope with this. 

Why not just a link to a "light version" at the top of the page?

David

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:49:26 +0100

Hi there,

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003, David Hansen wrote:

> > This makes it nearly impossible to describe the page as
> > I did it and have them displayed properly in those
> > browsers.
> 

I made a new version which uses background pictures only to
draw the decorations. Those pictures are not drawn by amaya
and dillo so they not shown at all in these browsers.
Defining a backgound color as well the site is still
visible in amaya and dillo even if it does not look that
fancy as in the other browsers. 

I have also added a menu in fvwm style.

Can anybody write a list of fvwm features you would like to
be shown on the web site?  

Uwe

---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:50:47 +0000

> I have also added a menu in fvwm style.

I see you work on it right now.

I like how it looks in Netscape 3 (without image decorations, but I think
it could be nicer than just gray). Please always specify bgcolor in <td>,
it is currently not specified in the gradient part. And I think the
global page background could be set using <body background>, this way it
will look nicer on more browsers.

> be shown on the web site?  

Do you mean the current features.html? It may be updated, but it is ok.

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:17:05 +0100

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Mikhael Goikhman wrote:

> I like how it looks in Netscape 3 (without image
> decorations, but I think it could be nicer than just
> gray).

I am quite suprised that is still looks good in netscape3
even if I had some difficulties to get it diplayed properly
by the first time I opened it with netscape3.  The version
which is currently online is about 30 minutes old. I have
tried a new version of the script which extracts the
sub-pitures from a window screenshot image.  The background
colors have to be adapted when we have find the right
decoration/layout for the page.

> Please always specify bgcolor in <td>,
> it is currently not specified in the gradient part. 

Done for most cases ;-) 

> And I think the global page background could be set using
> <body background>, this way it will look nicer on more
> browsers.

You are right. I used stylesheets only till now. The
background image in the body tag has been added by now.

> Do you mean the current features.html? It may be updated,

Uups. I have overseen it all times. - My fault. I will use
features.html of course.

Thanks for the hints.

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:08:32 +0100

Hi there,

Two new versions:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/features.php?decoration_path=decorations/window_deco_ice&hilight_color_back=slategray

and

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site

Any suggestions are welcome.

A shell script to build a set of window decoration pictures can
found on 

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/scripts/crop.sh

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:31:11 +0100

At the moment, I am a bit unhappy with the window like layout.
Take a look at

  http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/features.php

Is it just me, or does anybody else find the text arranged in
windows confusing?  I tend to favour the idea to make one big
window and arrange the text blocks inside as it was on the old
site.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:49:10 +0100

Hi there,

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Dominik Vogt wrote:

> Is it just me, or does anybody else find the text
> arranged in windows confusing?  I tend to favour the idea
> to make one big window and arrange the text blocks inside
> as it was on the old site.

Changed. At the moment I am playing around with the web
sites. There are several things I don't like on the current
design e.g. the background pixmap and the navigation style.
In my opinion the page should be look more like fvwm. 
I am going the "fix" that step by step. Next step will be
switch the current navigation with a FvwmPager naviagtion.

Thanks for the comment - it is good to get some feedback.

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Bob Woodside <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:15:01 -0500

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:31:11 +0100

> window and arrange the text blocks inside as it was on the old

	I think we should see where this is heading. Uwe is still playing
around with ideas at this point, and I'm all in favor of seeing as many
as we can and then deciding what to keep and what not (on the principle
of "build one to throw away" prototyping).

	Personally, I kind of like the desktop emulation layout (as Uwe wrote
elsewhere, he's continuing to modify it, and I'd like to see where he
goes with it), but we certainly want  to avoid going too far in that
direction lest we have so many graphical gadgets and gewgaws on the page
that it becomes confusing (or even just annoying!)

Cheers,
Bob

---

From: Bob Woodside <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:23:57 -0500

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:49:10 +0100
Uwe Pross <[email-masked]> wrote:

> design....

	Hooray! I'm glad to see they finally got your directory back online.

	I'll take a look at your php files later today or this evening. 

	The one thing I noticed right away is that you probably want to make
some changes to accommodate register_globals = off (the default setting
in PHP 4.2, for security reasons) - e.g., in place of the lines that
read

	$requested_file = basename($PHP_SELF);

you'd want to do something like this:

	if (PHP_VERSION < 4.1)  {
	  $requested_file = basename($HTTP_SERVER_VARS[PHP_SELF]);
	  }  else  {
	  $requested_file = basename($_SERVER[PHP_SELF]);
	  }

(and $HTTP_SERVER_VARS has to be declared global).

	Since I can make piddling little changes like this in less time than it
takes to describe them, I think we ought to look into putting this stuff
in CVS. Is it feasible to make a special test website directory on the
FVWM CVS server that doesn't get pulled into distributions? Do you have
CVS access, by the way? (I'm just thinking of this as a convenient
source repository, I'm not suggesting that we hook the test pages into
the FVWM Web server, even as temporary undocumented URL's.) Or is there
a better place to do it?

	Oh, and I didn't notice whether we got a reply to the question of
whether we have PHP currently on our server. Jason, do we, and if so,
what release?

Cheers,
Bob

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:57:37 +0100

Hi Bob,

;-)

> 	The one thing I noticed right away is that you
> probably want to make some changes to accommodate
> register_globals = off (the default setting in PHP 4.2,
> for security reasons) - e.g., in place of the lines that
> read
> 

All files are intended for php3. It is running at my
university and at my computer at home. But it should be not
a problem to switch to php4. I thought if the sites are
runable with php3 they should run with version 4 as well. I
restricted myself to use version 3 for porting purposes.

Before we put the files online we have to think about
security issues. Thats why I use the function sec_filename
for example.

> 	Since I can make piddling little changes like this
> in less time than it takes to describe them, I think we
> ought to look into putting this stuff in CVS.

Yes, that's right.

> Is it feasible to make a special test website directory
> on the FVWM CVS server that doesn't get pulled into
> distributions? Do you have CVS access, by the way?

No, I don't. 

> (I'm just thinking of this as a convenient source
> repository, I'm not suggesting that we hook the test
> pages into the FVWM Web server, even as temporary
> undocumented URL's.) Or is there a better place to do it?

Just in case, I have sent a project request to
sourceforge.net for a modular webdesign project. It was
said to be answered within two days.

Regards, Uwe
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------
| Uwe Pross                              
| mailto:[email-masked]
| http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp
+-----------------------------------------------------------
--
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---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:40:06 +0000

Jason, can you please enable php stuff in apache running on fvwm.org?
If you don't know what to do for this, you may ask here.

I think there is a consensus that the web design of Uwe is good and we
may try to go with it (the exact look is configurable by a visitor).
Since it uses php files not html we may keep both old and new designs for
a month or two without conflicts.

We should grant write permissions to Uwe to update fvwm-web cvs.
Uwe, you may send your encrypted password to Jason.

BTW, if you place new design pages in the fvwm-web cvs (say, index.php),
it will be automatically available in php enabled site:

  http://fvwm.sf.net/index.php

The old (current) design is as usual at:

  http://fvwm.sf.net/

Regards,
Mikhael.

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:36:26 +0100

Hi there,

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Uwe Pross wrote:

> There are several things I don't like on the current
> design e.g. the background pixmap and the navigation
> style. In my opinion the page should be look more like
> fvwm.  I am going the "fix" that step by step. Next step
> will be switch the current navigation with a FvwmPager
> naviagtion.

I have got the first version of the pager navigation
online. I did some major changes on the design.  I have
checked it with mozilla, netscape, opera, dillo, amaya and
lynx. The pages look similar and reasonable good in all
browsers.
The algorithm which selects the pages which are shown in
the pager has not been finished yet. I am going to make the
pager that it shows the path back to the home site and to
the subpages of the actual page as well.

I would be happy if I get some feetback about the design,
colors and pictures. All comments are welcome.

Regards, Uwe

---

From: Uwe Pross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:45:20 +0100

Hi there,

> I'll take a look at your php files later today or this

I found a bug last night in the php files I have packed in
the last tar archive. There was a problem with the variable
$rel_path and its usage. It happend that the file
"definitions.inc" was included within a function what never
should be happen. I have fixed that.

The version you have downloaded may therefore be faulty. I
packed the files of the actual version together:

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~uwp/fvwm_web_site/fvwmweb_250303.tgz 
 
Regards, Uwe

---

From: Jason L Tibbitts III <[email-masked]>
Date: 25 Mar 2003 10:17:32 -0600

>>>>> "MG" == Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]> writes:

MG> Jason, can you please enable php stuff in apache running on
MG> fvwm.org? If you don't know what to do for this, you may ask here.

I'm stuck in version hell at the moment (PHP requires some version of
OpenSSL while other packages require different versions) so I'm going
move the web services to another machine.  This should be done this
evening.

MG> We should grant write permissions to Uwe to update fvwm-web
MG> cvs. Uwe, you may send your encrypted password to Jason.

I've received his password, it's getting set up now.

 - J<