Subject: Problems with using SelectOnRelease together with other options in WindowList

From: Thomas Glanzmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:55:06 +0100

When writing

	WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort, ShowPage, SelectOnRelease

ShowPage works.
When writing

	WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort, SelectOnRelease, ShowPage

ShowPage does not work. The Problem here is that SelectOnRelease calls a
function to get Options. And I think that ShowPage is calles as an option?
This is an FVWM Current.

	Thomas
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From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:07:06 +0000

> function to get Options. And I think that ShowPage is calles as an option?

The parsing of SelectOnRelease option is not good. Use this instead:

  WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort, SelectOnRelease "", ShowPage

I think we already received enough complains to rethink this idea.

I vote for WindowList not to be defaulting to "SelectOnRelease Meta_L".
This is only (supposedly/questionably) good for Alt-Tab, but not for other
key and mouse combinations that include Alt modifier. It is ok for me if
ConfigFvwmDefaults includes this binding:

  Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort, SelectOnRelease Meta_L

Regards,
Mikhael.

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:16:36 +0100

>   Key Tab A M WindowList Root c c NoDeskSort, SelectOnRelease Meta_L

Then the SelectOnRelease MenuStyle can not be used for the
WindowList.  That may be even more confusing.  

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:56:23 +0000

> WindowList.  That may be even more confusing.  

Do you mean a user will want to leave the default Alt-Tab binding and
set "MenuStyle WindowList SelectOnRelease" to something like Ctrl_R?
I think this does not make a sence, it is easier just to redefine his
Alt-Tab or Ctrl-Tab or Super-Shift-F2 binding for WindowList without
a need to change MenuStyle.

Also I am not convinced that having MenuStyle SelectOnRelease is a good
idea. A modifier defined in SelectOnRelease is related to a specific
key/mouse binding, not to the whole menu that one may want to invoke with
or without auto-release on different bindings. But although I think that
SelectOnRelease is a property of a binding, I don't suggest to remove
MenuStyle SelectOnRelease if you think it is needed, only unbind
WindowList from Alt that is currently hardcoded.

Regards,
Mikhael.

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:32:17 +0100

> set "MenuStyle WindowList SelectOnRelease" to something like Ctrl_R?

It is more likely that a user wants to remove it with a MenuStyle.

> a need to change MenuStyle.

It may be easier if you already know how to do it.  But don't
forget that the default binding is hidden in some cryptic file the
average user knows nothing about.
 
> WindowList from Alt that is currently hardcoded.

It's a matter of usability.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:42:59 +0000

On 28 Feb 2003 14:32:17 +0100, Dominik Vogt wrote:
> > > > I vote for WindowList not to be defaulting to "SelectOnRelease
> > > > Meta_L". This is only (supposedly/questionably) good for Alt-Tab,
> > > > but not for other key and mouse combinations that include Alt
> > > > modifier. It is ok for me if ConfigFvwmDefaults includes this
> > > > binding:
> > > > 

We don't have a way to inherit MenuStyle's, so this creates more problems
than just redefining a binding.

> average user knows nothing about.

Both require reading the man page. For me learning about the default
binding and removing SelectOnRelease option from it is easier than
learning about MenuStyle WindowList SelectOnRelease and defining it.

BTW, "MenuStyle SelectOnRelease" is (and always was) broken. The only way
to remove this Meta_L is to define some other valid modifier like Ctrl_R
or something like "+"; empty or no argument restores Meta_L.

> > Also I am not convinced that having MenuStyle SelectOnRelease is a
> > good idea. A modifier defined in SelectOnRelease is related to a
> > specific key/mouse binding, not to the whole menu that one may want to
> > invoke with or without auto-release on different bindings. But
> > although I think that SelectOnRelease is a property of a binding, I
> > don't suggest to remove MenuStyle SelectOnRelease if you think it is
> > needed, only unbind WindowList from Alt that is currently hardcoded.
> 

Actually, if we speak about the whole idea, I don't think it is very
usable as it is now. It is not very easy to setup, because it requires
knowing the modifier keysym. Additionally, only one modifier like Meta_L
works, not any Alt (there are two). And if a binding does not include the
modifier configured in MenuStyle SelectOnRelease, this unrelated modifier
still works like Enter, this is a bad side effect.

I think that instead of SelectOnRelease it would be much better to
have SelectOnFullRelease option (the exact name could be shorter).
The default is !SelectOnFullRelease. So the following bindings work
without auto-release:

  Key Tab A CS WindowList
  Key F1  A CS Menu FvwmMenuRoot

and the following select an item when both Ctrl and Shift are released:

  Key Tab A CS WindowList SelectOnFullRelease
  Key F1  A CS Menu FvwmMenuRoot SelectOnFullRelease

Here any left/right Ctrl and Shift would work, not just one Ctrl_L.
I would like not to have any MenuStyle options related to auto-release,
because it is pretty trivial to set/unset this per a binding,
but MenuStyle is not an issue here.

This requires passing all modifiers that the menu was called with to that
menu, the auto-release is processed when all original modifiers are not
pressed anymore. I hope it is not a big problem to pass the modifiers.

I think it would be more convinient for a user.
What do you think?

Regards,
Mikhael.

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:25:28 +0100

> than just redefining a binding.

Good point.

> or something like "+"; empty or no argument restores Meta_L.

I know; this certainly adds to the confusion.  Maybe the only way
to reduce the possibility of misunderstandings is to write a
better text in the man page.

> knowing the modifier keysym. Additionally,

> only one modifier like Meta_L works, not any Alt (there are two).

Um, your keyboard has two Alt keys?  I have never seen such a
keyboard.

> And if a binding does not include the

I don't know, I think this is overkill.  The typical user wants
one of two things:  either use the default as it is or turn off
SelectOnRelease.  The case that she releases Alt first and still
holds down the tab key is irrelevant in my eyes.  Wh do not have
to care so much about redifining the key to trigger selection.  A
clear description of how to remove the binding should be enough.

In any case, I can't easily think of a reliable method to check
whether all keys are released or not.  What about state toggling
keys like num-lock?

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Thomas Glanzmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:05:32 +0100

> better text in the man page.

I do this. But after understanding the whole WindowList stuff and fixing the
Source Code if needed. Many Options if WindowList are not mentioned in the
manpage at all. I am making a list of them at the moment.
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From: Thomas Glanzmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:05:32 +0100

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From: Ethan Blanton <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:00:18 -0500

> Um, your keyboard has two Alt keys?  I have never seen such a

Virtually all US keyboards have two alt keys which produce Alt_L and
Alt_R, and no meta key at all...  Typically the X clients are
configured to recognize Alt_L as Meta_L.

Ethan

-- 
Happiness is a belt-fed weapon.

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From: Dominik Vogt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:28:02 +0100

> configured to recognize Alt_L as Meta_L.

Um, I have seen many US keyboard, but none had a second Alt key.
Do you by any chance mean the "Alt Gr" key?  That one is usually
used to compose characters, not like the normal Alt key.

Bye

Dominik ^_^  ^_^

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From: Ethan Blanton <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:44:58 -0500

> used to compose characters, not like the normal Alt key.

No, we don't have Alt Gr keys.  If I went to CompUSA right now and
looked at every keyboard they have, they would virtually all have:

2 Ctrl keys
2 "Windows" keys
2 Alt keys
1 "Menu" key

... and that's pretty much it for modifiers.  For some reason our US
keyboards are modifier-starved.  If I wanted an Alt+Gr or Meta key
(one that produced those keysyms, finding a keyboard where the keytop
says that is nearly impossible) I would have to either choose a non-US
keyboard layout or break out xmodmap/xkb/et al.

Ethan

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From: Dan Espen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:58:40 -0500

Ethan Blanton <[email-masked]> writes:
> =2E.. and that's pretty much it for modifiers.  For some reason our US

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/despen/junk/keyboard1.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/despen/junk/keyboard2.jpg

-- 
Dan Espen                           E-mail: [email-masked]