Subject: Re: FVWM Theme packages

From: Eric Renfro <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:01:59 -0500

> Eric, I didn't get any answer from you. Instead, I see, you dropped support
> for 2.2 and started your new fvwm-themer for 2.4 despite of your own words
> and my suggestion to join fvwm-themes. Can you please hint us what stopped
> you from joining the existing and working project with all infrastructure?
> Do we have any flaws in design, which you like to fix?

I dropped support for 2.2 for the time being, till I can get some decent
version depenancy checking working by use of forms or FvwmScript. I figured for
the time being, with the new engine as more featured as it is, I could just
remove the 2.2 support for now, and make the current stuff work, then backtrack
it, and get 2.2.x stuff working. 
My problem with fvwm-themes is the restarting of fvwm when you make a
configuration change, the seperate options you can use amongs all the themes.
That's a bad concept, and why I went away from AfterStep, for one. Another, is,
if someone else, NOT part of the fvwm-themes team makes a theme and uses
totally different options not nicely congruently working together, you have
what I call, conflict of interest. fvwm-themer is a project I've wanted to do
for a long time, and over the period of 2 weeks, I've been doing it. Quite
successfully, so far, too. ;)
I'm not on some ego trip like a small handful might think, I just have specific
wants.

> I would simply ignore this if you would play it nice. It is ok to steal
> design parts from fvwm-themes, but it is not nice to present the project
> as "revolutional" and your own without getting any links and credits to
> the authors of fvwm-themes, from where you copy structure and ideas.

What? Steal design parts? The only thing I've even _started_ to use was the
ScriptsUtilsMessage, and I don't even have it implemented in 0.3's release. The
only other snippet I've used is now a very highly hacked up voidme theme
listing engine, as part of the initTheme section. 

> We are activelly working on fvwm-themes for more than 3 months and it is
> very extendable, so adding your new components "xrdb" and similar would be
> an easy task. It will take you a lot of time to get all the functionality
> of fvwm-themes, unless you simply copy everything from it. At least, in
> this case your setup will be compatible with the official one. :-)
> 
> I would like to get some answers from you on the questions in this message,
> and I really hope we will work together at the end doing a favor for fvwm.

I've taken 2 weeks, doing fvwm-themer, and IMHO, is right next door to your
fvwm-themes. Still have a couple design flaws, which have been temporarily
disabled for a stable release, so I could take a break for a day or two.  With
something much more ready to be released than 0.2. ;)

Eric Renfro
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---

From: Mikhael Goikhman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:56:09 +0300

Eric, you replied to the wrong list, so I need to continue this flame in
both lists... :-)

On 06 Apr 2000 22:01:59 -0500, Eric Renfro wrote:
> configuration change,

This is wrong, there is no Restart. If you speak about a long time, we are
disscussing this now, it is solved by implementing component dependancies.

> the seperate options you can use amongs all the themes.
> That's a bad concept, and why I went away from AfterStep, for one.

Please clarify yourself, what exactly is a bad concept? I suggest you to
scan fvwm-themes-devel archives on "global vus local options" discussions.

> Another, is,
> what I call, conflict of interest.

Did you try to contact fvwm-themes team? We are not closed minds. Instead,
we are trying to implement everything peoples on our list request and
are searching for more developers.

> fvwm-themer is a project I've wanted to do for a long time, and over the
> period of 2 weeks, I've been doing it. Quite successfully, so far, too. ;)

Did you try to install and use your own version? :) The install script has
a syntax error and the theme script explicitly die's on different checks.

> I'm not on some ego trip like a small handful might think, I just have
> specific wants.

Sorry, I can't believe this. You would not announce every several days
your untested versions on freshmeat and you would join fvwm-themes-devel
list to discuss all fvwm theme aspects if it would be really no ego trip.
I wish to be wrong on this, of course.

> I've taken 2 weeks, doing fvwm-themer, and IMHO, is right next door to
> your fvwm-themes. Still have a couple design flaws, which have been
> temporarily disabled for a stable release, so I could take a break for a
> day or two. With something much more ready to be released than 0.2. ;)

You call your versions stable, this should be an April joke. :) The
version can't be stable if it is based on unstable fvwm and the theme
format is changed every few days. Your current 0.3 is less stable (after
fixing start bugs) and much less functional than our internal releases
from January. And we called them pre-alpha. Our current versions are very
strong and usable, but we are still call them alpha. To be called beta we
should at least finalize format and release specs for theme components.

Ok, I will not try to convince you to join fvwm-themes anymore,
but the door is always open for everybody, who really cares about fvwm.

Regards,
Mikhael.